11-28/13:40 Draganov: @Casshern, let make such a match happen and make it as a gift to the tafl community.
11-28/13:39 Draganov: It is clear that Casshern and I are currently the top players (with Alex Hnefatafl and Cacreal very close behind plus OdinHimself who has been a top player for a long time). I almost equal Casshern's rating and now we are both GM title holders. I would be glad if we have a match between me and Casshern. Let me use this chat to make an official invitation to Casshern for a best-of-ten match. This will not be a world championship match but just a demonstration match between the two leading players. In case of equal results 5:5 both players are winners. After that we can comment the games. I think this is something that a tafl community is lacking. We lack more games between top players. For example, in chess the greates rivalry between Kasparov and Karpov produced about 200 games between them. Nowadays, in the time of Internet when everything is happening faster and easier, it is a shame that we have very few games between top players.
11-28/12:29 Hagbard: (A max. ratings update showed that Draganov has crossed the grandmaster threshold.
So we have a World Championship Final between the two hnefatafl grandmasters!)
11-28/09:29 Hagbard: It's technically easiest to control it by time-per-move.
The hypothesis is that enough quick moves will give the night time.
11-28/09:23 Draganov: @Hagbard, Cacreal and I played 10 quick games and found out that the small time buffer is not enough to handle the night time. In my opinion, the best way is to keep the standard time buffer of 4 days like in tournaments and make the time increment 15 minutes. This will make players play faster and will prevent them from timing-out during night hours.
11-28/09:13 Hagbard: NB! Tournament 637 Simple Tafl T cross-w 9x9 is another test of using quick-timing in a tournament.
15 minutes per move was apparently a bit too small for practical use, so now it's 30 minutes per move.
11-27/03:15 Cacreal: For Copenhagen I would be happy to play a 5th round with the 4th round opponents if timing can be accelerated,, if Casshern is also eliminated, as currently he is the only one with one life left. If he does lose one or both remaining games them everyone is out
11-26/22:48 Draganov: @All I opened some games in several different variants. If someone wants to play against me, please do not hesitate to join.
11-26/20:46 Draganov: Yes but this is the best we can do in order to keep the integrity of the championship and prevent other people to suggest moves. However, I hope that one day we will be able to play tafl in real time online and could even stream the games over the internet with cameras switched on like in the modern chess tournaments. This will increase the popularity of the game. Imagine the two best players playing against each other and two former champions or top players commentating the games in an online stream video and hundreds of tafl fans around the world commenting the game in the chat. Of course, that sounds like a fantasy right now but who knows what will be in the future...
11-26/19:25 floki: Exciting ! it's a pity we can't follow the two remaining games
11-26/16:59 Draganov: Let's wait until all games are finished. In my calculation, Casshern, Alex and I still have chances to become the next world champion. At that moment, Alex and I both lost 4 games while Casshern lost 3 times. However, Casshern and I are playing the 2 remaining games. If I beat him twice he will have 5 loses and will be eliminated and Alex and I will have equal points. We both split against each other, so I think another match between us is the most reasonable end of the championship. If Casshern beat me twice, he will be clearly the winner. If Casshern and I split the points, then Casshern and Alex will have equal points but Casshern won 2 more games against Alex in the previous rounds.
11-26/16:44 floki: @Alex: well not this year then...
11-26/15:34 Hagbard: (Vinland: Alex Hnefatafl exits.)
11-26/12:58 floki: @ Alex Hnefatafl : Congratulations Alex for the impressive exit fort against Casshern, looks like the crown will soon lay on your head !
11-26/07:29 Hagbard: It's some years ago. Probably Luk remembers better the details of this variant.
11-25/21:33 Draganov: @Hagbard, could you correct the short rule description for Alea Berserk 17x17 (Martens)? There is no throne in the variant and the Guards are actually Knights. However, the Knights can only capture when they jump over a piece. They cannot serve as an anvil in capturing. Could you also clarify if the king could flee to the edge after capturing like in the other berserk variants? I think it would be nice if he can. It will make the game deeper and more dynamic. BTW, from my first impression, this variant is really good and well-balanced.
11-25/12:43 Hagbard: Bartley, Millar and I discussed this theme many years ago, and came to the perception that
- king captured from 2 sides means killing him.
- king captured by surrounding from 4 sides means he's taken alive for ransom etc.
Seen this way both 2- and 4-sides capture makes sense also for an Iron Age mind.
As far as I know, 4-sides capture in the Iron Age has not been recognised. Whereas it's known that 2-sides capture was used for tafl 1732, probably echoing 1000 years of play.
11-24/22:40 Hagbard: unlocked
11-24/21:58 Draganov: @Hagbard, I was exploring the game archive again and was thinking about some abandoned variants that might be worth to be revived. Last 2 years after my proposal, we successfully revived some great variants that were thought to be imbalanced. Some of these variants are Copenhagen 13x13, Copenhagen Bell and some Sea Battle variants. I think Imperial Contest and Tawlbwrdd Lewis diamond 11x11 are well-balanced. I also want to test a 17x17 variant called Alea Berserk 17x17 (Martens).
So, Hagbard, could you unlock Alea Berserk 17x17 (Martens) too.
11-24/15:58 Hagbard: I believe you sum it up nicely.
As I've written somewhere, the weak king is described in the Linneus diary.
A hundred years ago there was much confusion from translation errors and misunderstandings, and in desperate attempts to make the game work anyway, the other types of king were invented.
11-24/15:28 Draganov: @Hagbard, could you help me to clarify how many different king types exist for Hnefatafl? As far as I know from my personal experience, we have:
1: Weak King (armed, captured from 2 sides)
2: Strong King (armed, captured from 4 sides)
3: Unarmed King or also known as Cargo Ship (unarmed, captured from 4 sides)
4: King as Hammer (captured from 4 sides, can participate in capturing when he is moving to capture another piece)
5: King as Anvil (captured from 4 sides, can participate in capturing only as the static piece)
Are there any other types of king that has been tried during the years? Let's exclude from the example some unpopular types like King as Anvil or King as Hammer captured from 2 sides or unarmed cargo ship captured from 2 sides.
11-22/18:10 Draganov: Thanks, I will open 10 games and I will also challenge some players who are playing Sea Battle variants.
11-22/18:08 Hagbard: opened
11-22/17:01 Draganov: @Hagbard, can we have Sea battle 9x9 (Imperial Contest) open again. I think this variant should be open to play because it is a historical reconstruction of the game, many great players played it (Casshern, Nath, Crust) and the balance is calculated to be in favour of the whites, which based on my experience means the games are intresting, dynamic and fun to play.
11-21/22:00 Draganov: Thanks for the clarification, Hagbard.
11-21/21:40 Hagbard: The criteria are outlined here:
http://aagenielsen.dk/diagonalformat.php
The details is for the umpire.
11-21/21:12 Draganov: @Hagbard, could you please clarify what will be used to determine the winner for the Copenhagen championship if all of the players are eliminated and there are two or more players with equal points? Are we going to play another round or round-robin group or will use direct comprasion of the games between the tied players?
11-21/21:10 Ailill: I am a bit surprised to see I have apparently come third in the Sea Battle contest, but I'll take it :)
Great tournaments everyone, thank you to the organisers and congratulations to the winners. Let's hope for more good games and tournaments in 2024.
11-20/23:58 Hagbard: (3 players left in the tourn. right now:
1 American,
1 Russian,
1 Bulgarian.)
11-20/22:37 Hagbard: (Vinland: Cacreal exits.)
11-20/08:27 Hagbard: It means a change in software, so it must wait till after the WTF tourn. finished.
11-19/20:52 Draganov: I think it will be best if a player can activate night time off. For example, a player clicks on a button to add 8 hours to his time buffer. Each player could increase his time buffer by 8 hours three times during a game. This is necessary because it is very likely if you play against fast players to lose 8 hours each day because your active opponent played last before bed time. So in every night your time buffer is reduced. Hagbard, would it be possible to implement an option for a player to increase his time buffer by 8 hours three times per a game? The other solution is just to increase the time buffer with a day. I think fast control will work well in tournaments if we use the standard time buffer of 4 days but the time increment is 1 hour per move.
11-19/16:43 Hagbard: @brave-frog, but the night time is included in the buffer. If there's a problem, the solution would be to increase the buffer a bit.
11-19/00:53 casshern: @All, thanks! I am surprised, but grateful to have won the Historical Hnefatafl tournament. Congratulations to Draganov. He was a league above in Sea Battle.
11-18/22:14 Colophonius: I agree. Casshern and Draganov are the last tafl-men standing in Historical Hnefatafl and Sea battle tafl. Congratulation to both of you!
11-18/22:11 Draganov: Congratulations to Casshern for winning the Historical Championship! Great performance and very interesting games.
11-18/22:03 Hagbard: If the umpire doesn't disagree,
the Sea tafl tournament finished and we have a Sea Battle Master 2023:
Plamen Draganov ("Draganov") !
#2 Casshern
#3 Ailill
11-18/20:51 cacreal: Thanks to all my opponents for the interesting games, I am happy to play Copenhagen if anyone wants to play on the 1.5 day, 2 hour move clock while I wait for my final game to complete; otherwise see you again in 2024.
11-18/18:30 xerxes: Congratulations to Casshern
11-18/17:19 brave-frog: I have timed out agains in a winning position because of the night time. I suggest to add a sleep settings during this time players don't care about timeouts
11-18/14:10 Dimetr: Congratulations Casshern!
It was a great tournament.
Thanks everyone for the wonderful games!
If we will choose the best game of historical tournament - I suggest Casshern - Dimetr 50 moves.
Casshern won me beautifully with white, in a difficult position - his king ran around the board, and gone from the other side
11-18/00:16 Hagbard: If the umpire doesn't disagree,
the Hist.Hnef. tournament finished and we have a Historical Hnefatafl World Champion 2023:
Mario Aluizo ("Casshern") !
#2 Draganov
#3 Dimetr
11-17/22:36 Draganov: I also think it will be good to have 1 hour increment per move for the tournaments. So far, the Tablut tournament is going fine. Noone timed-out and the games are progressing well. However, it will be good if slow-paced players also test this time control.
11-17/09:31 Hagbard: Well, I can see that it happens that a player is returned an hour instead of just 15 minutes.
This was not quite on purpose but a leftover from the ordinary timing, a feature which influences the end of long games.
But now that it's there, it's lucky, because I don't think the Tablut tourn. would work without it.
11-16/18:43 Draganov: @Hagbard, what is the time increment per move for the quick timing?
11-16/07:50 Hagbard: (Holmgarthr: Dimetr exits.)
11-16/00:26 Hagbard: It's the same quick format. 15 minutes per move. 1.5 day buffer.
11-15/19:49 Dimetr: And how much time do we have? It's seems it's too quick
11-14/19:39 Dimetr: Tablut - it's a magical thing! Let's join
11-14/16:02 Hagbard: NB! Tournament 628 Saami Tablut-w is a test of using quick-timing in a tournament.
11-12/20:29 Draganov: Btw, does anyone keep in touch with Crust? I would be glad if someone asks him if he wants to come back for a Fetlar match against me. I also would like to play a match against Adam in Copenhagen or Fetlar (his choice). I tried to persuade Nath to come back for a match against me but at that moment he seems to be completely retired. The only world champion who played a match of 10 games against me was Herjan (a true tafl warrior).
11-12/20:15 Draganov: @Xerxes, unfortunately Crust and Animals are not active anymore and ChaolAibhne is a strong player mostly in weak king variants while I had in mind the Copenhagen variant.
11-12/19:44 xerxes: ... and having given it a bit more thought there is also ChaolAibhne and Herjan.
11-12/19:42 xerxes: @Draganov: Off the top of my head, DocBullen, Crust, Animals and probably Tonythebook are stronger than me ...
11-12/09:59 Draganov: Although, Bulgaria is a small country, we have probably the strongest team of 3 players compared to other nations -> Draganov, OdinHimself and Bogd Khan... Let's see the top 3 players from the other countries:
USA: Casshern, Jrton80, Pasta (formerly known as Teondrae)
Canada: very strong team Cacreal, Garun19, Holidayinnes
Russia: Alex Hnefatafl, Dimetr, Rosk
Germany: Sqaree, Colophonius, Luizz
UK: Herjan, Platypus, Xerxes
Maybe we could have national team tournaments in the future?
11-12/08:15 Hagbard: (6 players left in the tourn. right now:
2 Bulgarians,
2 Americans,
2 Russians.)
11-11/10:08 Hagbard: thank you!
11-11/10:02 xerxes: Fine for Copenhagen Round 4 to start Aage.
11-10/12:08 Hagbard: If the umpire doesn't disagree,
Copenhagen Round 4 setup is ready:
http://aagenielsen.dk/wtfturnering2023.php
ATTENTION please!
Copenhagen Round 4 starts tomorrow 11th at 18 o'clock Danish time!
11-09/18:33 floki: @ Draganov: You are right, I am a super player, far beyond reach ! Casshern, you and Cacreal are slightly more than beginners compared to me !
11-09/17:24 Draganov: @Floki, you can guess the next move because you are a very good player ;)
11-09/17:07 floki: @Hagbard Draganov is not the only one with this problem. Game from the archives are very slow motion. I can even guess what happens before the move which says a lot...
11-09/16:22 Hagbard: I notice it too. It is since the webhotel attempted to update their database software Nov. 1st. Their update failed for now and will be done later, but the response times are slow after this.
11-09/16:16 Draganov: @Hagbard, when I watch a game replay, the moves seem to be loaded very slowly. It takes about 3-4 seconds to load the next move. Is this a bug or the problem is in my laptop? I tested it on my smartphone and seems to be slow too.
11-08/15:59 Hagbard: The origin of the Ragnarok myth:
https://www.science.org/content/article/why-536-was-worst-year-be-alive
11-01/15:40 Hagbard: (Vinland: Ramzi Khadhraoui exits.
Luizz exits.)
11-01/10:46 Hagbard: Info: Yesterday evening the webhotel updated its database servers. It seems that the system response times have now increased. That will supposedly be fixed soon.
10-30/14:34 Hagbard: - But some day perhaps it could be fun to try the quick-timing for a tournament of short games like Market Hnefatafl 9x9 or Saami Tablut-w 9x9.
10-30/14:26 Hagbard: The x4 timing which is used now in the World Tourn., is actually tailored for the top players. Archive game runs testing various timings, showed that x4 is the shortest timing which would have given very few timeouts last year.
10-30/13:26 Draganov: Yes, to organize such a tournament after the WTF and in the early 2024 would be perfect. The other thing that I have in mind is to test the short-timing in a tournament with top players. Maybe we could use the short-timing in the grand tournament.
10-30/11:54 Hagbard: Sounds like it could be a fun idea.
Plantagenet, Crust, Schachus, Herjan, Bogd khan and Nath are rare guests nowadays.
But simply noticing the top of the separate Copenhagen rating there are:
2114 Casshern (536)
1961 Odinhimself (552)
1959 Draganov (843)
1864 Alex hnefatafl (736)
1787 Cacreal (1165)
1753 Garun19 (267)
1689 Holidayinnes (860)
1659 Sqaree (466)
1621 Adam (258)
The same for Hist. Hnef. is:
2000 Casshern (607)
1928 Draganov (1048)
1911 Irish raven (145)
1877 Alex hnefatafl (947)
1810 Odinhimself (115)
1753 Boucher228 (221)
1734 Jilles (588)
1733 Dimetr (521)
1676 Holidayinnes (1225)
If some players cannot make it, that would perhaps be a Round Robin of five players per line.
Since several players are on both lists, the two lines couldn't be at the same time.
After the World Tourn. players probably need a good pause, so it would be some time after New Year.
10-30/10:51 Draganov: We could also have a similar historical weak-king tournament in which the top players could be Casshern, Draganov, Dimetr, Alex Hnefatafl, Jilles and an open invitation to Ded Fomich.
10-30/10:48 Draganov: @Hagbard, I have a proposal of a grand tournament like in 2015 when Schachus, Crust and Nath played against each other. Back then, it was a battle between the 3 world champs. However, nowadays, we can't have more than 2 world champs in a tournament since only Casshern and I are actively playing. So, I think it will be great to have an exhibition tournament with the top 5 best players of the recent years. As I can see, these players are Casshern, Draganov, OdinHimself, Alex Hnefatafl and Cacreal regarding Copenhagen variant. I am also open to see former world champs like Plantagenet, Herjan, Crust, Nath, Schachus or Adam to take part in that tournament. As former world champs they must be always welcome to take part in it, if they want to participate. The last player to which I think it should be given a wild card and be invited is Bogd Khan. So, the tournament will bring together the strongest players and will produce memorable games that could be commented and help the other players to improve.
10-29/14:00 Colophonius: No need to hurry, in the meantime, I'll test it on my board. :)
10-29/13:50 Hagbard: @Colophonius, interesting.
The idea requires changes in software, which must not be touched during the World Tourn.
But it could be tested in real life in the waiting time.
10-29/13:49 Hagbard: (The three players in Hist.Hnef. Round 4 are the same three top players as last year.)
10-29/09:27 Hagbard: @Draganov, please beware! Two games are about to time out.
10-29/09:15 Hagbard: (Holmgarthr: Casshern moves on.
Chaolaibhne exits.)
10-29/00:30 Colophonius: It should work, because it's not that different from Walker-Brandubh :)
10-29/00:27 Colophonius: I admit, that I liked the idea of a 7x7 board in blue.
10-29/00:24 Colophonius: @Hagbard What would you think about testing a new sea battle 7x7 variant? No throne, no corners, the king unarmed and captured everywhere by two enemy pieces, either in the standard cross setup or the circle setup. :) The line setup doesn't make sense here, I think.
10-28/12:39 Colophonius: @Hagbard Round 4 can start.
10-28/10:48 Hagbard: ok
10-28/09:55 Draganov: @Casshern, the game is unrated with timing x10. You can just resign it or just play when you have time. Mrcrow is a newbie and will not be a difficult opponent even if you think 10 seconds per move. I myself started playing 6 unrated games against him, just to help him improve and taste the game against a top player.
10-28/08:55 casshern: @Hagbard: I thought we had upto 5 moves to cancel a game. I started a pair of games with mrcrow and was able to cancel one game but not the other. Would you be able to cancel the other game for me? It has only been 4 moves so far.
10-27/22:47 Hagbard: yes that's ok, Round 4 as Round 3.
10-27/22:46 Draganov: I think this year was good for Hnefatafl in general. A lot of players have progressed a lot. For example, I won many tournaments and reached my highest rating ever. Floki won against Plantagenet and me. Brave-frog reached R3 in the WC. Dimetr and Potapych won a lot of games against strong players and established themselves as top players. Jrton80 won against Casshern and me several times. MasterLuke reached his highest rating beating some very strong opponents. Alex achieved raing above 2000. So, in general, it was a great year for Hnefatafl.
10-27/22:17 Dimetr: This year, Draganov, Alex, Potapych and I,
and other players, did a good job.
I am very grateful for you all!
We played many tournaments Tawlbwrdd Lewis Cross -W (white first), and realised that it's perfect version.
Now, I think it was a good choice, and all players of the WC, liked the game.
So I hope, we will continue playing Lewis Cross in final?
10-27/21:53 Dimetr: Gentlemen! Casshern and Draganov!
I will be glad to play with you!
10-27/18:27 Hagbard: If the umpire doesn't disagree,
Hist. Round 4 setup is ready:
http://aagenielsen.dk/wtfturnering2023.php
Awaiting a few top player Round 3 games.
10-27/17:41 Hagbard: yes you can say that again - that sort of timing was a disaster. It was used because the internet described this method as a normal way of timing on the net.
10-27/17:36 Draganov: Playing with 20 days time buffer is very difficult. I once played with such a long time buffer on the website of Dashstofsk and almost timed-out since I forgot that I was playing.
10-25/23:55 Hagbard: Nath, Plantagenet 112 days for a game.
10-25/23:38 Hagbard: 104 days for a game.
10-25/23:22 Draganov: How fast or slow kind of player was Schachus in 2014? How long did his games last?
10-25/22:30 Hagbard: Big amount of time in 2014:
"Final round: each player can use 20 days for 10 moves.
Even if a player would time out from this rule, he does always have 1.5 day to do his current move.
But never more than 15 days to do his current move."
10-25/21:52 Draganov: What was the time buffer back then?
10-25/21:45 Hagbard: - And all those former round 3's were Round Robins.
Each 2014 player had 8 very strong opponents and 16 games in Round 3.
10-25/20:53 Draganov: In 2014 the finalists were the strongest ever. Of course, back than some players didn't reach their full potential (like Plantagenet who peaked 3 years later) but they were talanted. Look at the maximum reached rating by these great players:
Plantagenet 2018; Schachus 2010; Crust 1970; Nath 1956; Adam 1933; Altti 1910; Duhawk93 1755; Docbullen 1740; Helfrich 1575.
The first 5 mentioned was former or future world champions. Altti was as strong as a world champ and nowadays is the highest rated Copenhagen player in the Felhuhn's mobile app (playing under the nickname Hnaef Healfdane)... really a world-class player. Duhawk93 in my opinion is one of the most original players, especially in the opening phase. Docbullen in 2014 won the UK National Championship, so he was amongst the leading British players. Only Helfrich was a middle-level player but he has 2 victories over Plantagenet, so he was dangerous too. What a great tournament... truly the golden age of tafl.
10-21/06:59 Hagbard: (Vinland: Alex Hnefatafl moves on.
Paul7 exits.)
10-20/11:34 Colophonius: Hagbard, would it be possible to bring back Brandubh 2 in the balance and haphazardness section? It seems to be one of the more popular variants among the small boards.
10-20/06:24 Hagbard: (Tunsberg: Ailill exits.)
10-19/18:54 Hagbard: (Vinland: Garun19 moves on.)
10-19/17:59 Hagbard: @Ramzi Khadhraoui, please beware! Games are about to time out.
10-18/21:17 Hagbard: (Vinland: Casshern moves on.
Holidayinnes exits.)
10-18/21:11 Hagbard: NB! Test:
Any non-tournament game against Cacreal or against Hagbard has quick timing: 15 minutes per move and 1.5 days time buffer.
10-18/20:50 Ailill: I would be happy to play blitz in any variant, sounds like fun. Of course, subject to finding a date and time that suits everyone. Maybe it would be a good idea to set up a thread in the main forum where it will remain visible for longer.
10-18/20:19 cacreal: Thanks for the quick battles @Hagbard, it was good and that timing is definitely an option for me
10-18/17:20 Hagbard: I experimented with 15 minutes per move, time buffer 1.5 day.
It worked ok, a 60 moves game cannot last more than 3.5 days.
One was not tied to the comp. and still could play live some of the time.
10-18/17:18 Draganov: It will be good if a player is willing to play blitz to express it and mention the variants he would like to play. Here is my example:
Blitz ready! All variants :)
10-18/17:04 Hagbard: @Luizz, please beware! Games are about to time out.
10-18/17:02 Colophonius: Brandubh seems also to be very blitzable - just sayin'
10-18/11:03 Draganov: @Cacreal, I am also a fan of the blitz games. However, I don't think it will be possible to make drastic changes during the championship. However, if we meet against each other in R3 we could ask Hagbard to decrease our time buffer. Now, what I am suggesting is to have a list of players who express their will to play under blitz time control. If we have a big list of player's names, we could arrange a new blitz tournament and have a blitz champion too. Tonythebook and I were also thinking about playing and streaming the games on the Internet with cameras on. Maybe we could use Zoom or Skype, switch the cameras on and streamed the games on YouTube. I need to research this idea from a technical perspective but I think it will be possible to organize and set it up. Moreover, I believe this will help us to popularize the tafl game.
10-18/02:14 cacreal: Can round 3 Copenhagen be a live 2 hour speed round ?
10-16/21:19 Draganov: @Brave-frog, I think you could only have benefits from playing against me and Casshern. You have already made a great performance beating very strong players in weak king variants as well as in Copenhagen. Fighting against two world champions is a great way to exit the tournament with high honor. Moreover, it will help you to improve your play. To be among the best, you need to play against the best and learn from them. So, good luck and enjoy your games against me and Casshern!
10-16/21:10 Dimetr: Hagbard!
Yes, why not, thanks 🙏
Just show us new setup
10-16/21:04 Hagbard: @brave-frog, thank you that's the spirit!
@Dimetr, I think the tourn. could start tomorrow anyway then?
10-16/20:59 brave-frog: Hi everybody! I am on loss to get out. I can play with Casshern and Draganov in round 3. It is an honor for me
10-16/19:57 Hagbard: The order
Draganov, Casshern, Dimetr, Brave-frog, ChaolAibhne
is very close to the original one, so this is a very small change.
10-16/19:48 Dimetr: Yes, you are right, I get it now!
So, I will try to ask Brave Frog, maybe he will agreed to play with both champions.
If he not - ok, I will fight with both of you.
Hagbard,
give me one more day pause, please (especially, one of the Round 2 games is not finished yet)
10-16/19:47 Hagbard: This is very close to the original order
Casshern, Draganov, Dimetr, ChaolAibhne, Brave-frog
Casshern and Draganov are very equal, and ChaolAibhne and Brave-frog also are very equal.
If only these two pairs are switched, then Draganov and ChaolAibhne will not meet.
10-16/19:40 Draganov: Then, Brave-frog will play against me and Casshern
10-16/19:35 Hagbard: You're right that you were switched to #03 because Draganov/ChaolAibhne already played this variant.
Another possibility maybe:
00 Draganov
01 Casshern
02 Dimetr
03 Brave-frog
04 ChaolAibhne
10-16/19:03 Draganov: @Dimetr, it will be difficult to have a different setup. I already played against Casshern and Chaolaibhne, so my only possible opponents are you and Brave-frog. If you play me, who will be your other opponent? If it is Chaolaibhne, then Brave-frog will need to play against me and Casshern and in that situation he will have to play against two champions at once.
10-16/18:27 Dimetr: Hagbard!
I don't like setup of round 3.
I will play with Casshern and Draganov in one round.
So, my position - it's the most hard, than everyone else!
I don't understand, why my number is 03 now? (I was 02, in the second round).
Let's change the setup?
I think it's quite possible to make the setup more balanced.
I'm even ready to play with either Casshern, or Draganov, one side, and with Chaolaibhne and Brave-frog, at the same time, other side.
So, could you try to make some alternative setup (without the pair Draganov - Casshern or Draganov - Chaolaibhne, who had played each other, already)?
10-16/13:36 Hagbard: If the umpire doesn't disagree,
Hist. Round 3 setup is ready:
http://aagenielsen.dk/wtfturnering2023.php
ATTENTION please!
Hist. games Round 3 starts tomorrow 17th at 18 o'clock Danish time!
10-10/08:05 Hagbard: (Holmgarthr: Dimetr moves on.
Jrton80 exits.)
10-10/05:45 Hagbard: (Tunsberg: Potapych exits.)
10-09/16:08 Hagbard: May Thor grant you strength and courage on your way!
10-09/16:04 casshern: Exactly, thanks Aage!
10-09/15:56 Hagbard: Started the pattern as it would've been where 11x11 games are not repeated.
10-09/15:53 casshern: Regarding SB round 3, Draganov has already played Ailill and myself. So there is no avoiding a repeat match up. Since we will be using 11x11 board, I do not think Draganov and Ailill should have to play each other again. Which leaves only one path for round 3, Draganov and Ailill against Colophonius and Casshern.
10-09/15:38 Draganov: If Casshern and I meet again now, it will be of benefit of Ailill and Colophonius since they will have easier path to the final match. I think Casshern and I facing the other two players and then if we both survive R3 meet again sounds most logical.
10-09/15:23 Hagbard: Or alternatively, Casshern and you could meet again but this time the 11x11, first time was 9x9.
10-09/15:21 Hagbard: It was not possible to avoid two players meeting again in Sea 3.
All games are Sea battle-w 11x11.
10-09/15:10 Draganov: @Hagbard, regarding R3 in Sea Battle, Aillil and I already played in Sea battle tafl-w 11x11. Does it mean that we are going to play in Sea battle-2526 9x9 and Colophonius and I will play in Sea battle tafl-w 11x11?
10-09/07:09 Hagbard: If the umpire doesn't disagree,
Sea Round 3 setup is ready:
http://aagenielsen.dk/wtfturnering2023.php
Sea Round 3 can start tonight together with the Copenhagen:
ATTENTION please!
Sea games Round 3 starts tonight 9th at 16 o'clock Danish time!
10-08/21:28 Hagbard: ok
ATTENTION please!
Copenhagen Round 2 starts tomorrow 9th at 16 o'clock Danish time!
10-08/08:53 xerxes: @Aage. Fine to go ahead with Vinland Round 2
10-07/13:43 Dimetr: Yes, that's what we need! Thanks
10-07/13:30 Hagbard: Hist. Round 3 is planned to continue with the Tawlbwrdd Lewis cross-w 11x11.
Round 3 could turn out to be rough and final.
But should a couple of players survive Round 3, I don't know, perhaps as in a duel they could choose and agree on the weapon to use (the variant). (I would say a board not less than 11x11.)
The umpire will be in on that.
10-07/13:16 Dimetr: Hagbard!
It seems, that it will be more than 3 players, in the 3 round of Historical championship (Holmgarthr).
So we need to know, in what version we will play in round 3?
I think it will be best to continue Lewis Cross -W.
It would be better, not to change the version, during the tournament.
But then, after 3rd round, If only two players move to the final - they can choose a version between themselves.
That do you think?
10-07/13:14 Hagbard: If the umpire doesn't disagree,
Vinland Round 2 setup is ready:
http://aagenielsen.dk/wtfturnering2023.php
Awaiting a few top player Round 1 games.
10-06/12:42 Hagbard: (Tunsberg: Draganov moves on.
Ailill moves on.)
10-05/20:49 Hagbard: NB! Tim Millar ("crust") made this thorough explanation of the shieldwalls:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1637222823214092.1073741840.1464975820438794&type=3
10-05/06:06 Hagbard: @Casshern, please beware. Games are about to time out in 12 hours.
10-04/22:52 xerxes: @mrcrow: Please see my email. Thanks.
10-04/22:16 mrcrow: @xerxes Respectfully, I should not be subjected to the sudden introduction of a new condition not specifically stated in the shieldwall rule section in which the last move of the shield rule capture has to be a bracketing move. Because it was not explicitly stated exactly that had to be the case, I had no reason to assume the condition of last move must be a bracket move nor should I assume such given a lack of evidence to suggest it. Colophonius also not being aware of that condition gives more credence to my argument given that they too were not aware of that despite what was written in that section of the shieldwall capture. To quote "I can understant the idea behind needing bracket to capture, but it needs to be stated." From my perspective of this shieldwave issue it looks as a new rule was made up out of nowhere, which is simply unfair treatment.
10-04/21:20 xerxes: I'll put in one every 5 minutes
10-04/21:05 cacreal: message board comments should be worth 1/2 a point...
10-04/20:21 Hagbard: @Casshern, please beware. Some games are about to time out tomorrow evening.
10-04/19:58 xerxes: @Colophonius: yes, that is correct.
10-04/19:12 Colophonius: So the shieldwall finally must be closed at one end or the other? I also didn't know that, since I'm not playing too much Copenhagen. Thanks for the information.
10-04/18:40 xerxes: @mcrow: The Shieldwall Capture occurs when the capturing piece is moved to one end of the captured pieces (thus bracketing the enemy's men), not in front of one of captured pieces, so in your case it is not a capture.
10-04/18:12 xerxes: @Aage, please see my email.
10-04/18:11 mrcrow: I was white, my opponent is Sybil
10-04/17:55 casshern: Probably in 2020 my rating was at the highest. I only lost 3 games that year. I started and ended the year with loses to Death, with a lose to Ded Fomich in the middle. And most of my games at the time were against strong players. I remember only gaining a 1 or 2 points per win, even against strong opponents. And loses I would lose 15+ points. It was a very long grind for my rating to go so high.
But I have never really caree about my rating. I suppose it was just a byproduct of so many victories. Personally, I feel my rating is too high now. I am not as active as I used to be. And I my rating is still falling from that high point.
10-04/17:54 Hagbard: (Tunsberg: Colophonius moves on.
Paul7 exits.)
10-04/17:23 xerxes: @mrcrow: I'll have a look. Who was your opponent and were you Black or White.
10-04/16:43 mrcrow: I encountered a glitch in one of my WC games that is currently ongoing. I should have gotten a shield wall rule capture but it did not register it. In the rules of Copenhagen 11x11 hnefatafl that the WC links to it says 4b "The shieldwall rule for capturing a row of pieces on the board edge: A row of two or more taflmen along the board edge may be captured together, by bracketing the whole group at both ends, as long as every member of the row has an enemy taflman directly in front of him. A corner square may stand in for one of the bracketing pieces at one end of the row. The king may take part in the capture, either as part of the shieldwall or as a bracketing piece. If the king plus one or more defenders are attacked with a shieldwall, the attack will capture the defenders but not the king." I have done this and it did not register this rule.
10-04/15:51 Hagbard: After the big archive cleanup of ultrashort timed out no-games, the max. rating now calculated is 2317.
I suppose it's a result of very many and very accurate games -
10-04/15:35 Draganov: I think this is the only time we have more than one player with rating above 2100. I wonder how the rating is generated because Casshern had maximum rating of 2350+. I don't know how he managed to achieve such high rating. It looks impossible. In the past the highest rated players except Casshern were Plantagenet and OdinHimself (both around 2000). To achieve rating 300 points more than them, it means to beat them at least 50 times without losing since you usually receive 5-8 points for a win and from one point when the difference in rating is more than 200 points, you will receive only 2-3 points.
10-04/14:45 Hagbard: @Casshern, please beware. A game is about to time out tomorrow morning.
10-03/16:18 Hagbard: My testgames now: 0.5 hour/move and time buffer 2 days.
10-03/11:52 Skye: Chess must be clock.
10-03/11:41 Skye: @Hagbard, would it be an idea to have a clock running with each game played, so players know how much time they have left? Like having a chess next to the board.
10-03/10:46 Hagbard: Yes same system as usual.
The list of response times shows that average 0.5 hour is real quick, noone faster than that.
10-03/10:43 Draganov: I got the point. At first, I thought that a player will lose if doesn't make a move in 1 hour. Now, I understand that the player has 1 hour to make a move before starting consuming his time buffer.
10-03/10:37 Hagbard: - if he does this 3 times, the buffer might be gone -
10-03/10:36 Hagbard: The time buffer does this. A player sleeps and takes 9 hours off the time buffer.
10-03/10:31 Draganov: And a player to be able to freeze the game maximum 3 times.
10-03/10:30 Draganov: What about implementing the option freeze for 8 or 10 hours. It will be good, if the game prolongs until the night, the players to be able to freeze the game timer and went to bed. Then, on the next day continue the game. Is such a functionality difficult to be implemented?
10-03/10:05 Hagbard: Perhaps. Perhaps 0.5 hour or even 0.25 hour per move. And perhaps time buffer 1.5 day.
Problem is speed & flexibility. You should be able to do other things also and once in a while see if it's your turn.
10-03/09:51 Draganov: We just need to decrease the time per move to 10 minutes and keep the time buffer to 2 days or decrease it to 1 day it doesn't matter since the game will not last for 1 whole day.
10-03/09:49 Draganov: @Hagbard, I think the main drawback of your test-timing is that 1 hour is too long. Imagine the situation in which a player is playing fast until he realizes that he is in a lost position. Then, start playing slowly. Play one move and wait 1 hour to play the next move. The night comes and the better player went to sleep, then the losing player makes a move and wins the game. I think if we want to test a fast time control, we had better use smaller time buffer. For example, 10 minutes time buffer.
10-03/09:16 Hagbard: My four invitations are a test of a x1/2 quickmode:
1 hour per move, 2 days time buffer.
A 60 moves game would always last less than 7 days, and preferably of course much less.
10-03/09:10 Hagbard: (Tunsberg: Alex Hnefatafl exits.)
10-03/06:34 Hagbard: (Vinland: Luizz moves on.)
10-02/20:42 Draganov: Congratulations, Mike! Well deserved title! Your race games results were overall best during the whole year, so I am glad that the title went to the strongest player in this kind of games!
10-02/18:09 Hagbard: The Race games tournament finished and we have a Race Games Master 2023:
Mike Coveny ("holidayinnes") !
All three players were eliminated in the final.
After the final the losses were:
#1 Holidayinnes: 2
#2 Draganov: 2.5
#3 Xerxes: 3
10-01/22:57 MasterLuke: @Hagbard: Thanks for your answer to my question on 09-18/15:31 (I haven't read this forum for a while). I didn't know there was a rating or symbol for being creative. It's kind of funny :D
09-30/21:15 Hagbard: @Luizz, please beware. Games are about to time out tomorrow night.
09-30/08:57 Hagbard: (Holmgarthr: Jrton80 moves on.
MasterLuke moves on.
Vinland: Potapych moves on.)
09-29/15:51 Hagbard: Sahkku. You meet each other for the first time.
When players A and B are compared, pieces are only counted for the A-B games.
09-29/15:43 Draganov: And what will be the variant that we are going to play? Sahkku or Daldos?
Are we going to take the total number of pieces left from R1, R2 and R3 combined or only in R3?
09-29/15:41 Hagbard: Curiously, the three Race games finalists are the same three Race games top players of last year's tournament.
Noone played against each other yet, and all have 1.5 losses.
In case all players are eliminated in the last round:
The player with the fewest losses won.
If there are more players with the same fewest number of losses:
Direct comparison of the games of the tied players.
If this is also even, the player who in the comparison won with the largest number of pieces left, is the winner.
09-29/15:24 Hagbard: Race Round 3 setup is ready:
http://aagenielsen.dk/wtfturnering2023.php
If you're up to it, Race Round 3 can start tonight together with the Sea:
ATTENTION please!
Race games Round 3 starts tonight 29th at 18 o'clock Danish time!
09-29/15:12 Hagbard: (Altta: Holidayinnes moves on.
Jrton80 exits.)
09-29/14:32 Draganov: @Hagbard, it seems that Holidayinnes, Xerxes and I moved to R3 in the Race tournament. We all have 1.5 lost points so what will be our last battle? Could you clarify the rules for R3?
09-29/10:26 Colophonius: Thanks a lot Hagbard, it worked
09-29/09:49 Hagbard: @Holidayinnes, please beware. Games are about to time out this evening.
09-29/09:39 Hagbard: @Draganov, there's been a big archive cleanup of no-games: timeouted games of 4-5-6 moves on large boards such as 11x11.
Your rating calculated from all archive is now 2050, earlier 2046. Max. rating calculated from all archive is 2050 as before.
09-29/09:26 Hagbard: On Hex: sorry, a bug. A getaround is to do one move more. Black places yet a piece, and the win is detected.
09-29/09:23 Hagbard: Just a simplified version of Tablut, invented for the Ringsted Medieval Festival last summer. And now used for the family board game days.
09-29/09:02 Draganov: @ChaolAibhne, yes, it is the same like Tablut but without a throne and with different setup. No throne, edge escape, king captured from two sides.
09-29/01:59 ChaolAibhne: Is Market Hnefatafl 9x9 essentially Tablut with no throne and a different layout?
09-28/22:04 Hagbard: @Holidayinnes, please beware. Games are about to time out tomorrow evening.
- I'll see to the other things tomorrow -
09-28/20:52 Colophonius: There seems to be a problem in the Hex tournament with black winning; it's not recognized as a win.
09-28/20:30 Colophonius: Nobody is supposed to win against Casshern, I guess xD
09-28/20:21 Draganov: @Hagbard, could you please check the max rating calculation. Now, I am 2090 but in the max rating it shows only 2050. I just won against Casshern but before and after my victory, the max rating was 2050. It was not changed.
09-28/20:07 Colophonius: Hagbard, could you have a look at my Hex tournament game against arcrue? Its finished, but still continuing
09-28/18:14 Hagbard: No, they just play randomly, to try this ancient thing from Scandinavia
09-28/17:10 Draganov: @Hagbard, you said 2 years ago that the University of foreign cultures used a strange format for their tournament. Could you try to understand it and explain it to us. Probably we can test it in some tournaments in case it is good.
09-28/10:04 xerxes: @Draganov: I fear I have used up all my luck ...
09-28/08:57 Draganov: @Xerxes, what a great comaback... You and I managed to win all of our Sahkku games and to survive after R2 despite both losing 3 games in Daldos.
09-27/16:37 Hagbard: @ekve2, it's ok, thank you for participating!
09-27/16:35 ekve2: unfortunately I have to withdraw from the WTF, too much real world stuff going on, I gravely miscalculated the commitment needed, I'm sorry
09-27/16:19 Hagbard: If the umpire doesn't disagree,
Holmgarthr Round 2 setup is ready:
http://aagenielsen.dk/wtfturnering2023.php
Awaiting a top player Round 1 game.
09-27/14:17 Draganov: I am a volunteer to give a good tafl battle to the champion from the University of foreign cultures. Hagbard, could you ask them if their champion wants to participate in such an exhibition match. We can play in Simple Tafl as this is the variant they use.
09-27/14:08 Hagbard: In case you didn't see it in all the messages:
Welcome to the University class of foreign cultures, we're always happy to have you here!
09-27/10:57 brave-frog: Oh my apologises again. I am blind
09-27/10:56 brave-frog: Oh wow! Thank you! My apologises! But the others should know about this link! Can we have it on this page http://aagenielsen.dk/wtfturnering2023.php?
09-27/10:51 brave-frog: Because some of the conversation goes behind. Colophonius knows somehow Docbullen and I don't pass to the next round in See Battle, it is okay if you talk in private about this, but the others also are curious to see how many games have been completed :)
09-27/10:50 Hagbard: How many games are left is here:
http://aagenielsen.dk/wtfturnering2023_tael.php
09-27/10:45 brave-frog: Hi Hagbard! It will be good if in these http://aagenielsen.dk/wtfturnering2023.php we can see "v" instead of "x" if a game has been compelted
09-27/10:41 brave-frog: Hi guys! It's a good idea that the current games are hidden from the others, but it's a good idea to at least show how many games are left! :)
09-27/09:59 Draganov: My proposal for starting fresh in R3 is when the finalists are a top player (placed between 1-4) and a player coming from the bottom. To avoid having a low rated player becoming a champion by just splitting against the top player, they need to play from equal result 0:0. If the two finalists are top players (1-4 place) the previous results must be preserved and they need to play the variant they didn't play against each other. In case of more than 2 players reached R3, they could play round-robin on equal basis.
09-27/09:50 Hagbard: (Vinland: Jrton80 moves on.
Paul7 moves on.)
09-27/09:44 casshern: My last suggestion for round 3 or 4, is a round robin as Draganov suggests. With players starting fresh (no previous loses counting against them). But players should play both variants, 9x9 and 11x11, against one another. If it is just 2 players then they play 2 matches. 3 players 4 matches and so on.
09-27/09:26 casshern: @Hagbard: Thank you for your response. I know the format has been a work in progress. Thank you for all the work you have done. As always, I appreciate the opportunity to give my opinion.
09-27/09:21 casshern: Regarding the likeliness of a third round in all 3 tournaments this year. I think the solution is simple. Each player should play at least 3 opponents. In each of the first 2 rounds. The race games could conclude after 2 rounds. With each player playing 6 matches respectively. If possible, I would suggest each player play 3 opponents in the second round. If it is not too late. I know SB is ready for the next round.
As @Hagbard points out, the amount of games played should not affect the outcome. The best player should still win. I do not know how Alex or Odin feel. But I do not think they should have any complaints. The fact is they played against top tier opponents and lost. I do not hear them making any excuses.
09-27/09:10 Draganov: I also agree that we need a different format. The current format is brutal for the top players. It is very likely a player rated on 5-10 place to become a world champ just by splitting the result against the other player in the final. I have a solution which maybe is not the best but it sounds fair for me. If the final is between 2 players (the first one was amongst top 4 rated players and the second finalist is rated below top 4) the final must be started with equal results. All previously lost points must be deleted and both players play from 0:0. Then the point of R1 and R2 is just to survive and in R3 the chances are equal. If there are more than 2 players, let's they play round-robin tournament with previously lost points deleted.
09-27/08:57 Hagbard: @casshern,
the post was not first for me, I guess, but I have a couple of comments.
Last year, some details in the format was a challenge for the players. Things happened which were unfortunate.
Therefore, after the tournament, I did a lengthy calculation of all players' performance (sent to the umpires), and the calculation showed that, despite last year's format's imperfection, the right players won.
This year is much different. The unfortunate details of last year are not there.
I analyzed how the format will work on the whole scale of players here:
http://aagenielsen.dk/diagonalformat_comments.php
The curves show that true, the Round 1 games are easier for the "bottom" players than for the top players.
But considering the players' own strength, it is much easier for the top players to proceed to next round than for the "bottom" players.
The curves also show, that this year the stress on the top players is very even.
09-27/08:56 Hagbard: That happened to me, too, some time ago. I had a special character in a post and had to remove the character before the post was accepted.
09-27/08:55 Draganov: I agree with Casshern. The idea to play in R3 a variant that the finalists didn't play in the previous rounds sounds good to me. However, what if there are more than 2 players in round 3 and they have already played both variants?
In HH we have more playable variants than in Sea Battle. In HH we have Tablut and Tawlbwrdd Lewis cross and Tawlbwrdd Bell (which is indeed boring but it is a well-known and tested). For me sounds logical to play the variant that the two finalists didn't play against each other in the previous rounds and if there are more than 2 players in R3 to play Tawlbwrdd Bell.
For Sea Batlle, I think we are using the optimal two variants for R1 and R2. Let's use the same logic and if there are 2 players in R3 they will play the variant they didn't play against each other. In case of more players, we need to choose another Sea Battle variant, which I can't propose now since they are all bad or not well-tested.
09-27/08:55 casshern: @All: Sorry for so many post. I hope you are as amused at my short comings as I am.
09-27/08:53 casshern: Curious, because other members can.
09-27/08:52 casshern: I think that is it. Wow, it really does not let me use the apostrophe when I am posting.
09-27/08:50 casshern: @Hagbard: Perhaps it is because I am trying to use an apostrophe?
09-27/08:48 casshern: Curious, I am still getting blocked. Even with short posts.
09-27/08:47 casshern: I think that is everything that I wanted to say.
09-27/08:45 casshern: In my experience, the boards that draw out the best play are 9x9 and 11x11. I am not a fan of using so many different variants. I think we should use the most playable and balanced variant(s). Also, It is not good to experiment different variants during the tournament. Last year we had a SB 11x11 that favored black too much.
09-27/08:44 casshern: I think larger boards are not good for competition.
09-27/08:41 casshern: I think we know what the best 9x9 SB and HH variants are. I think we should stick to the best know balanced/playable 11x11 variant(s). If there is only one, then stick to that one. If there are more than one then I think it would be fine to change
09-27/08:39 casshern: I still stick by my suggestion from last year. If players meet in round 3, who previously played against each other in one variant. Then they should play the other variant.
09-27/08:35 casshern: But, I am still having trouble with my other response. It is literally just 2 paragraphs. Nothing inappropriate obviously.
09-27/08:29 casshern: Okay that worked
09-27/08:28 casshern: @Dimetr: Regarding the first round exits of Alex this year and Odin last year. It seems like a circular discussion at this point. And this post will probably bring a lengthy response from Draganov. A can of worms I was hoping not to open this year. But here we go.
I think this tournament structure is not good. As you say, it is very tough on the higher ranked players. And easier on the lower ranked players. Like last year when we meet in the third round of HH, the strongest opponent you had played to that point was me. And you did well to split a pair of games with me. However, my path was much more difficult. Having played you, Draganov, Jilles, and Alex twice. I went into the third round needing to win both games, while another split and your would have won.
To me, it seem like round robin is the best format. Everyone plays an equal amount of games against the same opponents. And every game counts.
09-27/08:26 Hagbard: - and the cutting of very long posts is not to bother any users, it's only a measure against a theoretical attack of a hacker with a megafile to overwhelm the software.
09-27/08:21 casshern: Honestly, my post is not that long. Shorter than Draganov, Dimetr, and your post. Well, I will keep trying to post.
09-27/08:19 Hagbard: start testtesttest test testtest testtesttesttesttesttest testtesttest test testtesttesttesttest test testtest testtesttesttesttesttest testtesttest test testtest testtesttest test testtest testtesttesttesttesttest testtesttest test testtest
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09-27/08:10 Hagbard: - and nothing is changed here in the chat forum.
As usual, the program should cut a very long post and show the beginning.
09-27/08:09 casshern: It is strange, because obviously I can post. Just not long post.
09-27/08:08 casshern: @Hagbard: To clarify, I mean in this forum. The small forum.
09-27/08:04 Hagbard: @Casshern, strange, you're the second to say that today.
A few seconds ago I posted a test in the large forum, and it worked for me.
09-27/08:03 casshern: Apparently I can post. But am I restricted some how? I cannot post a long post like other members.
09-27/07:57 Dimetr: About Round 3 in the Historical part of the championship:
I already wrote, that I think, Welsh Tawlbwrdd-w (Bell) - it's boring.
but I will repeat my post if you don’t mind.
I think it is better to continue playing the Lewis Cross 11*11, in the final. White or Black first move, don't matter.
So, I will repeat my post, but I am also ready to play any version of 11*11.
About Welsh Tawlbwrdd-w (Bell):
The real balance of the game is strongly in favor of black.
I think, in some "conditional" game without mistakes, black in Bell reconstruction, will be much better.
But the problem is not only in the balance.
The game should be interesting.
Tawlbwrdd Bell, maybe not bad, but it's not interesting.
Reason of that:
Bell reconstruction - it's like a hard puzzle.
The battle takes place in a very limited space. It's like playing long and closed position in chess - too difficult, and too boring.
Besides, opening in Bell reconstruction is too standardized.
In the all Tafl variants, blacks vikings x2 more than whites, and
It is clear, that the balance depends on King's activity (which costs half of the army when he has a space on the desk, and costs nothing when he doesn't).
In Bell reconstruction -white must do the almost impossible things, to open space for the king, it's not sow easy.
I'm realised what I'm still don't know how to play Tawlbwrdd Bell, and maybe nobody know, except
Casshern, Draganov, and Alex Hnefatafl.
As for Tawlbwrdd Lewis cross 11x11 (with throne) -I think it's the best and most interesting version of historical Tafl.
The starting position makes the game very variable, players can choose from many variations.
White has a lot of space for development, but Black also has many opportunities for a good game.
09-27/07:55 casshern: @Hagbard: I am having difficulty posting in the forum.
09-26/17:35 Hagbard: @Docbullen, please beware; important games time out in a few hours.
09-26/17:13 Hagbard: - and second thought: better 11x11 than smaller boards, because it's a Final and important battles.
09-26/17:03 Hagbard: Interesting idea. My first thought is, better 11x11 than larger boards, for the sake of the players' patience and avoiding very long games.
09-26/16:38 Draganov: @Hagbard, it seems that not many players will be eliminated after round 1. So, it is very likely that we are going to have R3 in each tournament (except maybe in the Race tournament). I propose to start discussing the variants for the potential R3.
For Historical Hnefatafl we have Welsh Tawlbwrdd Bell 11x11-w which is well-tested. The other options are to go to the next bigger board (13x13) and play Historical Hnefatafl 13x13 or Historical Hnefatafl 13x13 (modif. Parlett 2). In the first case we are sticking to something we have already experienced before, while in the second case we are going to experience battles on different board sizes (9x9 in R1, 11x11 in R2 and 13x13 in R3). For me both options seem to be intriguing. So, I will be glad if other players express their opinions.
For the Sea Battle tournament we have Sea battle-204577-w 11x11 (the variant that we played last year) and another options could be Sea battle tafl 13x13 (Nielsen) or Sea battle tafl 13x13 if we want to go to a bigger board battle. The circle variants are also interesting but not tested enough. There is one more Sea battle variant for 9x9 which seems well-balanced Sea battle-1571 9x9 if we want to play different variant and not to repeat already played variants from previous rounds.
Let's have a discussion and see what other players think.
09-26/16:38 Hagbard: thank you!
09-26/16:33 Colophonius: Hagbard, as sea battle umpire I agree, round 2 can begin. Brave-frog and Docbullen already are out, Casshern and Draganov move on to round 2, no matter what happens in their running match.
09-26/16:20 Hagbard: If the umpire doesn't disagree,
Tunsberg Round 2 setup is ready:
http://aagenielsen.dk/wtfturnering2023.php
Awaiting a couple of top player Round 1 games.
09-25/18:43 Hagbard: (First Round 2 game finished: Hagbard / Cacreal.
One minute later: Draganov / Cacreal.)
09-25/17:17 Draganov: Regarding the elimination of Alex, I think it proves how close in strenght are the top players. I think there are at least 5 players who can beat anyone.
09-24/22:12 Hagbard: - and if we do the Beat The Winners like last year, he'll have the chance to do just that; AlHn was #1 in the BTW last year.
09-24/22:01 Hagbard: True, unfortunate to miss Alex Hnefatafl in the Hist.Hnef. Round 2.
However, the top half of players have a very big chance of moving on, since they only have to win a single game out of four.
09-24/21:55 Hagbard: @Docbullen, please beware; games are about to time out.
09-24/21:42 Dimetr: Hagbard,
Maybe it will be better to make randomly start setup list (regardless of player rating), for the World Champ, next year?
Now, it's not good, that strong players fight against each other, right in the first round, and take points from each other.
It's very sad, that Alex Hnefatafl exit from the Historical tournament
(and I was one of the reasons for this).
His games are always strong, interesting and unusial, and we can learn how to play Tafl, from his games.
But his tournament position, between Casshern and me, was too difficult,
and he left.
So, we won't be able to see his playing in Lewis Cross 11*11, at this champ, unfortunately.
So, maybe random start setup, will be better - strong players will meet in the final
09-24/08:10 rosk: A crazy idea came to mind. And what if we make a variant of the game for Hnefatafl with the return of the King to the throne? That is, the game begins with the King at the edge, who, with his supporters, must regain the throne. Or maybe it should be a game with two Kings? Is such a game mechanics possible?
09-24/07:52 Hagbard: @Docbullen, please beware; games time out in a few hours.
09-24/07:46 Hagbard: (Altta: Jilles exits.)
09-23/19:30 Hagbard: NB!!! The "!" next to a timeout warning is set when the available time from one move to the next has fallen below 10 hours. The time available will continue to fall until it's only 2 hours.
In this phase the "flag will soon fall", because a timeout will happen some night soon while a player is asleep.
09-23/17:41 Hagbard: New in gallery: photo series from Mikkel Berg-Nordlie!
09-23/07:22 Hagbard: You sure are right!
But Brave-frog is doing fine in the World Tourn.; no game has timed out and also no game now is very near to time out.
09-23/07:13 Hagbard: @Docbullen, please beware; games are about to time out from 13 o'clock UK-time.
09-23/07:06 Hagbard: (Holmgarthr: Alex Hnefatafl exits.)
09-23/03:16 Jrton80: AND if you want to make that retroactive, I am fine with that. Life in the trenches is bad enough as it is.
09-23/03:13 Jrton80: Given certain dramatic events in a certain area of the world, timeouts for Brave-frog really should be suspended. I am getting tired of winning by default when he is truly busy elsewhere. There really is a difference between getting distracted by life, and being unable to turn on the phone due to the tactical situation.
09-22/07:35 Hagbard: (Altta; Rosk moves on.
Docbullen exits.)
09-22/06:44 Hagbard: (Vinland: Cacreal moves on.
Tunsberg: Alex Hnefatafl moves on.
Altta: Xerxes moves on.)
09-21/21:22 Hagbard: (First to finish all Round 1: Colophonius)
09-21/19:47 Hagbard: Yes and it was already old tradition. All Iron Age houses are thought to be built that way; this is Iron Age house reconstructions in Lejre:
http://aagenielsen.dk/lejre/lejre3_640.jpg
09-21/19:40 Colophonius: @ Hagbard: Reading Michael Chrichton's "Eaters of the dead" I found it quite remarkable, that the entrance doors of the Trelleborg-houses seem to have been built so low, that any intruder would have had to bow down so deep, that he easily could have been beheaded by only one person waiting inside. Really clever!
09-20/21:43 Hagbard: @Sauron, please beware! Games are about to time out tomorrow evening.
09-20/20:47 Hagbard: (Altta: Chaolaibhne exits.)
09-20/16:25 Hagbard: info: The aliases Wigla.... are students in an American University class learning Scandinavian culture right now. They mostly play only against each other.
09-20/15:30 Hagbard: @Draganov, please beware. A grand game is about to time out tomorrow at 14 o'clock
09-20/08:37 Hagbard: @Floki, please beware, some games are about to time out in 13 hours.
09-19/20:46 Hagbard: I experimented with it and found out that it is a complicated thing to make. My idea is also complicated to make. When Cacreal and I did the Copenhagen games, we just played them quick.
09-19/20:40 Draganov: Yes but sometimes it is difficult to play 10-20 moves in a row. With my solution we will respect players availability and eliminate the long analysis. It will feel like we play on the board and at the same time we will not need to stay 30 minutes or 1 hour in front of the computer or smartphone to finish the game. For example, I often play while my children and I are outside and they are playing. However, I play 2-3 moves using my smartphone and then keep an eye on them or move to another place with them. I can't focus on the game for 10-30 minutes without interruption. And this is my case although I am one of the fastest players. I am sure the other players will have their own reasons to play slowly. With move buffer of 5 minutes, we can simulate playing over the board without the need to stay and play the whole game at once.
09-19/18:28 Hagbard: There is a simpler solution:
The two players agree to play it quick ...
09-19/16:44 Draganov: The only problem is how to handle the difference in time zones. We have active players from Oceania (New Zeland and Australia), America and Europe. We also need to think about the situation in which players are at work. Sometimes the working hours are the best time to play games but most of the time it is very difficult to play during work hours. I have a proposal to add two time buffers. One is the general time buffer for the whole game. It could be 2 or 4 days like it is now. The second time buffer starts immediately after the player opens the page and see the position for the first time and it is his turn. Then, the player has only 5 or 10 minutes to make a move. I think it will fasten the games considerably. No time to setup a physical board and make long-time analysis. No time for consulting with someone else or use engines (nowadays there is still no engines for tafl but who knows what will be the situation in the near future). We can test this solution if it is possible to be implemented.
@Hagbard, could you clarify if you can add a second time buffer (let's call it move buffer) which starts after the player who has to play, opens the page for the first time?
09-19/16:14 Colophonius: Shorter time formats and live games would be cool! 😎
09-19/14:15 Hagbard: "I prefer to enjoy a beer and have a few battles" - I like the attitude!
To mention what I've a mixed experience with:
2010-2011 everything here was live. It was very fun; every evening we would start a couple of games and stay at the screen often for an hour. Broadly speaking we were just three, very enthusiastic players and some more random passers-by. England, Norway, Denmark, no time zone problem. Only time control was: every move timed out after five minutes.
However, it was too hard requirements for less enthusiastic players.
A wonder how an "Instant Mode" could work now.
A mode with parameters 5 minutes per move and time buffer 15 minutes.
09-19/13:33 xerxes: Timeouts are always unfortunate, especially in this case, but there has to be a time limit - otherwise why bother finishing a game you are going to lose ? So, the question is how long should the time limit be ? My personal view is 6 days is too long, but I tend to be a fast player (perhaps that is where I go wrong !). If anyone enters a tournament they have an obligation to the other players to understand the commitment required and the time limits in place.
09-19/13:31 Colophonius: @ ekve2 The game didn't end in a draw, in fact I lost.
09-19/13:06 Draganov: I played a lot of fast games with Tonythebook and we both enjoyed them. During our games, we discussed the possibility to play some games live with shared screens on Zoom. Maybe, we can have such a test tournament in which we join a Zoom room, switch the camera on, chat, drink mead and use this website to make the moves. I am open to anyone who wants to play against me over Zoom.
09-19/12:15 cacreal: Regarding Copenhagen - maybe there could be a quicker version of a tournament next year or a live online event. This would be a lot of fun. Hagbard and I completed our games at the championship and it was the most fun I had playing tafl online. A few years ago there was an experiment with an hour game clock and Hagbard and I had a great battle. In my games with Sqaree - he is a formidable opponent but has timed out in past games also. Definitely he only played one move and did not play for a long time in the current set of games. There is a move email feature that is also available or it was in the past. The pieces come alive when you play in 30 to 60 minutes. I have introduced many to this game and you can play multiple in person games in a hour. Beginner to FM. Personally I decided to play in the tournament after engaging in an excellent battle with Floki that lasted a maximum of 48 hours and we split the games . A tournament with less than 50 players should not require a month to complete a round. I would be happy to match up with any top players for games that could be completed in an hour. LA time or Bulgarian time. And I also respect too players want to play once a day - but I prefer to enjoy a beer and have a few battles. Historically I am sure this was a festival / evening game. Your opponent may be Valhalla the next day. Wishing everyone good battles.
09-18/23:47 sqAree: I'll get over it, there'll be another championship. ^^
But I still personally think we should have one day to do our moves at all times.
09-18/22:19 Ailill: What exactly are the timeouts intended to achieve? Do they just ensure that games don't drag on forever? In that case I think there is probably scope to make them longer for the "main" tournaments and maybe have "speed" tournaments where everyone knows that you need to be quite active. If a tournament goes on for a few months I don't think anyone would be harmed that much. Maybe I'm missing a stronger reason why we need them though. I guess if tournaments drag on for a long time people might forget about them - that could be mitigated by an email notification when a new game starts.
09-18/22:15 ekve2: regarding the question by @Colophonius, if there are such positions ending in a draw I would love to hear more. I'm not sure if I understood the perpetual repetition rules correctly, but to me it looks like black should be usually able to force a win by perpetual repetition unless white king can escape? rules page does not have exact definition but if you google 'hnefatafl perpetual repetition' other pages say the aggressive player i.e. white king trying to get past black pieces must find another move or lose
09-18/21:15 Hagbard: 3 players were not allowed to the tournament because they had 0 games.
3 players were entered but did not show up.
And then there's the most unfortunate case with sqAree, who timed out by accident.
Even more unfortunate since sqAree is in the top seven at last year's tournament.
But otherwise the tournament is not disturbed: all players have 2, 3 and 4 opponents just as before, and all race players have four opponents as before.
09-18/20:25 Draganov: Regarding the case of Sqaree, I have mixed feelings. First of all, it is really disappointing for him as well as for the whole championship to have one of the top players eliminated in such a way. On the other hand, he, Luizz and in general most of the German players tend to have problems with the game timing. I don't know why German players are struggling with the time but this is one of my observations. As a joke, I could say that the Bulgarians and people from Eastern Europe are generally poor because they play silly games, while Germany prospers because the Germans don't play games but work hard. It's a joke, but who knows it might be true to a certain extent. Well, I personally think that the time buffer must be 6 days as it is now, but it must mean 6 days. So, a player times out only when his whole time buffer is over. No timeouts before day 6. In my opinion, the games of Sqaree must be restored with the time buffer of 3 days left.
09-18/20:13 Draganov: I suggested that a newcomers need to play at least one game in order to participate in the championship. I think it works well since this restriction prevented couple of players who has not been active to participate. Without this rule, we would have at least 10 no show offs more. However, I have a proposal for the next year championship. We can keep the rule for minimum 1 game to be able to take part in the championship. Secondly, I propose all of the newcomers (players with less than 10 games) plus players who tend to timeouts often to be grouped in a separate stream or group and to play against each other. The winner of them could join the rest of the players in the second round.
09-18/20:05 Draganov: I think we have a problem with the timing. However, I still can't offer a working solution. What I personally think is that because some players timed out, others have huge advantage. This is especially true for the race games where if there are timeouts or inactive players, others who benefited from that, will become huge favorites to win the championship. One of the solution is to add additional games to the benefited players but this is also bad since it is not their fault that their opponents timed out or never showed off. The whole championship could be compromised due to timeouts and inactive players. We need to find a working solution for this problem.
09-18/19:18 sqAree: Even with a warning it was doomed ; I was away travelling for a few days.
09-18/19:04 Hagbard: Docbullen, please beware! Games are about to time out in four hours.
09-18/19:01 Hagbard: Sqaree, I'm very sorry about that. I would've given a big warning here in the chat, but when I discovered it this morning it had already happened.
09-18/18:03 sqAree: well it's your loss, fewer people participating (including me) and tafl is slowly dying (cough cough we know why)
09-18/18:02 sqAree: The format for the championship on this site is ridiculous considering it's turn-based. It's been said for years, and all that ever happens is that we get even less time..
09-18/18:01 sqAree: bruh how am I already on timeout after 3 days
09-18/15:31 Hagbard: It means "very creative"!
09-18/15:02 MasterLuke: @Hagbard: what does the light bulb mean, next to my name on the rating list?
09-18/14:55 Colophonius: Dear other umpires, a quick question: My sea battle game against Paul7, me playing white and him playing black, is it a draw? None of us can win, I guess
09-18/12:19 Hagbard: If a player doesn't show up at all, other matches are started instead.
Otherwise a timeout is a loss.
If a game is only a couple of moves, it's not rated.
09-18/12:10 Hagbard: done
09-18/09:02 Ailill: How do timeouts after 0/1 moves work in the tournament? Do they count as a draw or a win for the non-timed out player (or something else)? I assume they do not affect rating?
09-17/22:12 Hagbard: @Docbullen, please beware; a number of games are about to time out before tomorrow noon.
09-17/20:45 Draganov: If someone wants to try a new Sea battle variant called Sea battle T circle 11x11, I will be more than happy to play against. It seems to be a very interesting variant. So, if someone wants to give it a try, he can join the tournament. Hagbard, could you please extend the expiration time of this tournament because maybe someone will join it next week?
09-16/22:10 Hagbard: Well there is a problem with a.o. Sauron in the Hist.Hnef. He has several games with 0 moves which will time out tomorrow at 18 o'clock.
09-16/21:59 Draganov: I think we need to wait little bit more to see if some of the players will timeout. It seems most of the players started playing and made at least 1 move. Sometimes it is more difficult to play during the weekends since many people are focusing on their families. My suggestion is to leave the games that seems to be decided by time off just to time off. It will happen after couple of days.
09-16/20:21 Hagbard: Yes not a day but only 6 hours.
So everything was ready and running by Sep. 15th 00 o'clock midnight.
But the few hours before are more convenient for working since it's started manually.
And also experience shows that the hours 18-24 are always the most active hours with both Europeans and Americans present.
So 18 o'clock is a good place to start.
09-16/20:03 ChaolAibhne: @Hagbard It appears that the tournament started a day early? That may have caught out some people who have been away from the game for a while (such as myself), and were surprised when they came back on 15 September and found that a day had already come off their time.
09-16/18:11 Hagbard: Please BEWARE:
please make a move in the tourn. games, if there are any which are not started yet!
Or else they time out tomorrow 18 o'clock Danish time.
09-16/18:09 Hagbard: (Altta: Draganov moves on)
09-15/16:52 Hagbard: Yeh I remember that page. I think the details list was endlessly long -
On the new page you have all the sums of losses listed below the boards.
09-15/16:45 Draganov: Thanks! However, it is not visible when scrolling down on the tournament page. On clicking on 'Countings' it navigates to a new page. It is not a problem to be on separate page but would it be possible to have the finished games mentioned like the previous years. For example Player A - Player B, loss 0-0.5 (white won) (Total loss Player A 0, Player B 0.5) and when someone has 4 losses, to be marked in red. I think it was a nice and very visually appealing like last year.
09-15/16:22 Hagbard: But it's there. On
http://aagenielsen.dk/wtfturnering2023.php
choose "Countings" and you get:
http://aagenielsen.dk/wtfturnering2023_tael.php
09-15/16:09 Draganov: @hagbard, is it possible to have some visibility of the tournament with the standings and the results like in the previous years. I think it will be good to see information about wins and losses on a single page.
09-15/15:26 Hagbard: (Altta: Tonythebook exits)
09-15/14:47 Hagbard: (Altta, first to finish all games: Hagbard.
Five minutes later: Tonythebook.)
(Altta: Hagbard moves on)
09-14/18:33 Hagbard: (Along the way I might write some informal comments, which are written only as an outside spectator.
The umpires have the final say.
To show that it's an informal comment, its marked with parantheses)
(First move: OdinHimself)
09-14/18:29 Hagbard: 260 games.
May Loki give you laughter as you go!
09-14/14:47 Draganov: Good luck to all tafl players! Let's enjoy the games and may the best player wins!
09-14/12:40 Hagbard: The setup is ready.
Games start today after 18 o'clock Danish time:
http://aagenielsen.dk/wtfturnering2023.php
09-13/16:29 docbullen: Registers for the WTF Race Games tournament.
09-13/16:29 docbullen: Registers for the WTF Sea Battle tournament.
09-13/16:28 docbullen: Registers for the WTF Copenhagen tournament.
09-13/16:28 docbullen: Registers for the WTF Hist.Hnef. tournament.
09-13/14:46 Hagbard: Just to remind again the 91 players on the not-on-the-list list of the race games ...
09-13/07:09 Hagbard: Deadline tomorrow Sep. 14th 12 o'clock Danish time.
NB! The games are started tomorrow 14th some time after 18 o'clock Danish time!
09-12/23:41 Skye: / sell should be added after enjoy
09-12/23:25 Skye: Furthermore: chess is chess 1 game, 1 set of rules. Tafl has multiple games (even on same sized boards) with different rules. I don't say we should but 1 7x7, 1 9x9, 1 11x11 would make it (maybe) easier to comprihend / understand / master / enjoy, than the "enormous" amount of games and rules available right now? Just a tought.
09-12/22:37 Skye: The question is, not only to attracked top players (might be good for attracting more players over all) but how to get Tafl in the mainstream spotlight, and make it more popular. For the rest I agree, pressure makes diamonds and for that you need opponents similar to your strenght (regardless off your ranking), and a lot of games.
09-12/21:49 Draganov: For example, in chess we have hundreds of games between the top players. Kasparov and Karpov played about 200 official games between each other without counting the casual games. In the age of internet, the top chess players are playing even more. If we look at Hnefatafl, we will see that top players played few games between each other. We don't have more than 10 games between Schachus and Nath as well as Plantagenet and Casshern. This inactivity prevents players from improving. How good a player will be if he plays only against players 2-3 levels lower than him? I think in the future we need to find a way to popularize Hnefatafl and bring some strong players to it. For example, bringing some chess players. I think it is possible to attract strong chess players (at least IM or even GM level). For example Adam played Tafl against the chess GM Christensen. Some top GMs like playing chess variants (Nakamura played Shatranj). So, even they could be attracted if Hnefatafl is presented in a better way and becomes more popular. Secondly, we need to find a way to have more games between top players.
09-12/21:31 Draganov: Indeed, the game has evolved over the years. We can see similar evolution in chess. In the 16th century, the greatest player was Ruy Lopez, whose play strength is comparable to the nowadays amateurs who are playing in the parks. I think nowadays we have some really strong tafl players like Cacreal, Odinhimself, Holidayinnes, Alex Hnefatafl, me and of course the strongest player Casshern. I would say that these players are understanding the principles of the game and are able to think 3-5 moves ahead. For example in some of the games between me and Casshern as well as me and Alex, we all knew what will be the position after 5 moves and fought for reaching a certain position. In some of these high-quality games the players made quite strategic moves whose impact was seen after 10 moves. It is difficult to see such depth in the games from the old games where the players played too obviously attacking the corners. However, I would like to open an interesting question. In my opinion Crust, Nath and Schachus were so much ahead of their time and outplayed the competition 10 years ago but overall the quality of their games is lower compared to the top players nowadays. And here is the question, how much stronger these great players would become if they faced stronger competition? Imagine if Casshern and Schachus played 100 games between each other having the opportunity to explore the game together.
09-12/19:46 Skye: I should have gone touristing in 2008, then I might have gotten myself a W
09-12/19:44 Skye: See how it all evolved, it has to be an extremly smart (and lucky) tourist to win the upcoming tournament with no prior knowledge 30 minutes before the start of the first game of the next tournament.
09-12/19:38 Skye: Nice
09-12/19:35 Hagbard: A bit fun to remember a few things from the "beginning".
2011 we were only 8 and some of us played like sh.. (sorry, I'm referring to myself - ).
2008 a tourist won the world championship, who learned the rules half an hour before the tournament!
09-12/19:24 Skye: I'm assuming you can?
09-12/19:23 Skye: @Hagbard, if Draganov agrees you can have look at our chat.
09-12/18:56 Hagbard: @Draganov, well said!
09-12/18:47 Skye: Hello Draganov, I've send you a invitation and a few words. Kind Regards Skye
09-12/17:06 konrad7890: Registers for the WTF Hist.Hnef. tournament.
09-12/15:15 Hagbard: 75 registerings from 37 players
09-12/13:41 Draganov: Winning or losing, it doesn't matter, just play for fun and who knows maybe you can create some nice games even if you are not playing seriously. Moreover, the championship in the recent years is quite easy on the time. You could have maximum of 4 opponents at once (which means only 8 games in the moment). Playing fast it will take you 5 minutes in the morning and 5 minutes on the evening to participate in the championship. Is this too much for you guys?
09-12/13:40 Draganov: Let me express my own and sad opinion about Hnefatafl. I think we can call Hnefatafl the greatest game that noone wants to play. Sorry guys, sometimes I don't understand your decissions although I respect them. I come from chess background although I have never been a good chess player but just a local chess amateur winning some village and town competitions. I used to play about 5 chess games per day before finding Hnefatafl. Now, I hardly ever play chess (I continue playing Historical chess variants like Makruk, Courier and Shatranj) since I think it is quite a boring game. However, when I regularly played chess, I played about 5 blitz games per day. In these 5 chess games, I played about 200 moves. It took me about 20 minutes to do that. When I played 130 Hnefatafl games at once last year, I spent almost the same amount of time each day. I play fast, I often think less than a minute on my next move and often think less than 10 seconds on a move relaying more on intuition and experience than on analyses. Recently, Tonythebook and I played a lot of games in plenty of different variants in fast pace. We truly enjoyed the game and had a great time. I might be wrong but is it so difficult to play twice a day during the world championship? If you don't have time to analyze the positions in deep, just play for fun spending 10 seconds on a move. Yes, you will probably lose a lot of games. Yes, you will probably no finish on top but you will still enjoy the game. Moreover, there are experienced players who can be quite dangerous even if they think 10 seconds per move. They just can play on intuition and experience. If you have some kind of illness or lost interest on the game, it is ok to skip the championship. But if you are going to stay on the web site and play couple of games during the championship but not participating in it, I will ask you why you don't join the championship. Winning or losing, it doesn't matter, just play for fun and who knows maybe you can create
09-12/13:15 Hagbard: Suggestion:
The Race Games WTF tourn. needs only a x2 timing, the same as is used in the ordinary tournaments.
I looked through the ordinary race games tournaments (x2), and timeouts there are very rare.
Rest of the WTF tournaments (Cop., Hist. and Sea) use x4 timing.
09-12/12:35 Hagbard: Remember, the Race Games tournament line is easy and quick -
09-12/10:31 Tonythebook: Hi folks- I have just started the Race games and find them real fun. We are looking at getting some wooden ones made and there is a US site www.redhenllc.com who DO ship abroad for standard card based sets and other games too, maybe have a look. I have tried to speak to herjan about playing again, he is reluctant. Our own Nuts the squirrel game is a version of 11x11 Tafl with a central 9 square 'reservation' for the red squirrels, the marauding Greys are the usual 4 sets of 6 on edges, they can't go through or into centre- 2 sided capture. King armed or Nuts as in this game. egde wins
09-12/08:18 Hagbard: Two days yet to register for the World Tournament 2023!
Deadline Sep. 14th 12 o'clock Danish time.
09-11/23:06 Dimetr: Hagbard!
Thank you a lot!
As for Tawlbwrdd Levis Cross -W: White's first move - it is a good choice.
But everyone needs to know -
black have to play very carefully in the beginning!!!
If white play correctly -
black haven't much good answers, in the start (but however- there are some good moves, and we need to find it).
So, I think, it will be many mistakes whith black, including among strong players.
And after Black's mistake, at the beginning, his position can become bad, quickly.
(I know, this may happens in many variations of Tafl, but in Lewis Cross -"W" - it is especially. White immediately get high speed)
later, if black could blocks the first attack, the space for the king will be less and less, and black will be stronger and stronger.
In the middle of the game - it will be
equal game.
Sooner or later, we will find the right game for black.
But now I advise -
Look Draganov's games Tawlbwrdd Levis Cross -"W"- he showed a very strong games for White, in our last tournaments (although, he was strong with blacks, too).
Anyway, Lewis Tawlbwrdd - "W"(white first move) - will be more alive, aggressive, and interesting, then classic
09-11/17:02 fiji270: Registers for the WTF Hist.Hnef. tournament.
09-11/15:56 Hagbard: ( - and, similar to Hist.Hnef. where I asked #2 last year Dimetr to decide between the two, both playable, versions:
here in the Sea line you're #2 last year, both versions seem playable, so you've chosen white begins.)
09-11/15:39 Hagbard: Though the tests have not very many games, they seem to indicate, that white does not get extremely strong by moving first. The measured balance is still more to black than the known balance from black moves first.
So, it looks like Sea battle tafl-w 11x11 would not be worse than the old version and therefore could be tried.
09-11/15:36 Draganov: Regarding Lewis cross, it seems blacks are still better even with whites moving first. In tournament 574 whites won 7 times, blacks won 5. In tournament 579 whites won 9 times, blacks won 11 times. In tournament 587 whites won 3 times, blacks won 3 times. Combining all three tournaments we will have perfect balance of 19:19 black/white wins. So, Lewis cross-w seems to be playable. Moreover, it is more interesting to play in a variant in which the whites have better or equal chances than in a variant in which the blacks are favoured to win.
09-11/15:27 Draganov: Regarding Sea battle tafl-w 11x11, we had two test tournaments. In the first one (tournament 588) blacks won 7 times against 5 times for the whites. Moreover, strong players like Alex and me didn't manage to beat each other with the whites color and even didn't come close to win with the whites. So, it seems that even with whites first, the balance is still in favour of the blacks very much. With blacks first it will be absolutely terribly in favour of the blacks making the variant practically unplayable. So, as conclusion, I would say that whites need to move first in Sea battle tafl-w 11x11 to keep at least some chances to win the game.
09-11/12:56 Hagbard: Player names are on the setups. The lists change when more players register.
http://aagenielsen.dk/wtfturnering2023.php
09-11/09:04 Hagbard: Plan:
Last year each line of tourn. waited for all lines to be ready for next round.
This year, each line will move on to next round as soon as it can.
Fx. race games are quick, and the Race Games tourn. will probably be over in a short time.
09-11/08:36 Hagbard: - I understand from the forum posts from Dimetr 09-03/12:51 and 09-03/20:23 that Dimetr goes for the Tawlbwrdd Lewis cross-w 11x11.
So Tawlbwrdd Lewis cross-w 11x11 it is.
09-11/08:09 Hagbard: And what do you think about the Sea Tafl 11 for the tourn.,
should it be Sea battle tafl 11x11 or Sea battle tafl-w 11x11, with black or white to begin ?
For the Hist.Hnef. 11,
do we settle for the Tawlbwrdd Lewis cross-w 11x11 with white begins ?
09-11/07:23 ekve2: Registers for the WTF Hist.Hnef. tournament.
09-10/12:42 Hagbard: Two World Champions join and two nearly World Champions
09-10/10:00 Hagbard: 77 registerings from 35 players
09-10/07:38 OdinHimself: Registers for the WTF Copenhagen tournament.
09-09/16:26 Hagbard: Improved Race Games setup:
http://aagenielsen.dk/wtfturnering2023.php
09-09/10:13 Hagbard: Hint to players who have not yet registered for World Tourn.:
You can always try Race Games, this takes very little time, effective thinking time per move is seconds.
09-09/09:53 Skye: I saw it, thanks.
09-09/09:39 Hagbard: done
09-08/09:26 Skye: @Hagbard: is it possible to ad a few more lines to the rules in Tablut-W 9x9. It only says King armed, captured from 2 sides. I always forget it is also King captured from 3 sides next to the throne and King captured from 4 sides if he is on the throne. Would be a great help (at least for me). Thanks
09-08/07:58 Hagbard: These players have not registered for the World Tourn.:
Abbas Agraphicus, Adam, Agmundr, Altti, Animals, Archibald K., Arevidar, Arne64, Asther-Kane, Bigwurm91, Bogd Khan, Boucher228, branan, Brench, chuck ward, Conanlibrarian, Cromwell, crust, Cyningstan, Ded Fomich, Docbullen, Duhawk93, EilidhAnIorua, epm180, Epoc, fairland, Fraech, garun19, Gungnir, Harry64, Helfrich, herjan, Hnefihunter, Hok, huzsiati, imaxuncut, Irish raven, jarcin, Juergen, jules, Jurgenson, kAAgEE, KayKyber, Kihtan, Kllimm, konrad7890, L716, Leoak477, Makhiraen, marcin, mihkkal, Mika, mmagari, Mykle, Nath, Nikos1820, Oddur, OdinHimself, Orlo, Patterson, Pavel Dusenko, pc.a59xy, pedro, Pie96, Plantagenet, Red-Ron, rideroflight, Rollo, Rook, Rossomaha, Schachus, Sebastianmucke, Sigurd, skallatorc, Skye, staticmatic, Steiger, Tengrikut, Teondrae, Thanir, thebigfoot, themightyglider, Toscano, Trygve, tuireann, unhandyandy, Unterwichtel, Volkenpuk, Vonraider, Waegn, Wesley Alves, william the 3rd, Ytreza
09-07/20:32 Colophonius: Thanks a lot!
09-07/07:38 Hagbard: Sahkku: moved the black piece.
09-06/22:37 Colophonius: @Hagbard Thank you very much! Could you also move Draganovs upper black piece to g3, I forgot to mention that 😅🙈
09-06/20:22 floki: Registers for the WTF Race Games tournament.
09-06/19:23 Hagbard: Sahkku: moved the white piece.
09-06/09:00 Colophonius: Thanks Hagbard; I also saw my misinterpretation of the rules, you're right.
09-06/08:01 Hagbard: @Colophonius, I'll have a look at the game tonight.
Hint to players who have not yet registered for World Tourn.:
You can always try Race Games, this takes very little time, effective thinking time per move is seconds.
09-05/22:54 Colophonius: Hey Hagbard! There's a problem in my saami sahkku tournament game against Draganov. My last move, move 40, was taken back, I don't know why. Checking the replay you'll see that my last piece should stand on k3. Can you please fix this?
09-05/21:23 Skye: @Hagbard and the rest of the Tafl community, i would like to play in the WCT (Tablut) but it takes to much time for me, all these games (maybe after I retire). I'll stick to individual games for now. Good luck every one.
09-05/13:10 Hagbard: The king has the center rules: captured by 4 and 3 pieces in center.
09-05/10:42 Colophonius: Hey guys! I just read some of the ruled again and spotted a mistake in the description of the rules for Hist. Hnef. following the link on the championship tournament page. There it says that all pieces except the king are captured by samdwiching them between two enemy pieces. Later it says that the king is captured just like any other piece. It would be nice if somebody could correct that before the championship starts.
09-05/08:08 Hagbard: 10 days till start of World Tourn.
On the timing:
The x4 timing which will be used, is more convenient for players than the timing used last year.
The many timeouts last year will not happen with this one.
On the number of games:
A strong player has in every round only 4 games (against 2 opponents).
A not so strong player has in the first round 8 games (4 opponents).
(Race games: everybody has 8 games the first round, and then 4 games per round).
On the game lengths:
The new timing prevents games to last for months.
A game with extremely many moves could perhaps last for about 30 days.
09-04/18:55 jilles: Registers for the WTF Race Games tournament.
09-04/16:41 Colophonius: To be honest, it seems that I didn't play Tawlbwrdd Lewis cross yet. So therefore I'd rather like to abstain.
09-04/13:02 Tonythebook: I tend to agree with @draganov and @dimetr having played a few recently- I think it'd be nice to have the weaker player always get the 1st move in games anyway- we play thta way with new players in Formby until they get confident- I must gte our Nuts Squirrel rules and our castled version of Tawllbrwd to you soon, saw Herjan recently- he may play soon!