World Tafl Federation

unhandyandy
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:39 pm

Re: World Tafl Federation

Post by unhandyandy » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:23 am

;) Right, my idea was to have a Master title instead of GM or IM.

User avatar
Hagbard
Posts: 470
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:07 pm
Location: Copenhagen
Contact:

Re: World Tafl Federation

Post by Hagbard » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:43 am

Casshern wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:24 am
I think of these titles as trophies or medals that can be passed out to different players. The question I have is, should these titles only be given to the most recent winner (meaning they get passed/transferred) or each winner forever keeps their title(s) (meaning there could be multiples of each and players could have multiple titles)?
The idea is to pass on the HH, SEA, BERS and QUAD to the new winners.

Actually, there has come a special interest in the 9x9 version of Historical Hnefatafl, the Saami Tablut 9x9, in the Norwegian Sápmi (Mikkel Berg-Nordlie, "Mihkkal") and in the Moscow Geek Wars club (Alexander V. Fomichev, "Ded Fomich").

Tablut 9x9 together with the Welsh Tawlbwrdd 11x11 are the two most well-founded historical tafl games, and therefore it would be interesting to split the HH into a HH Tablut Master and a HH Tawlbwrdd Master.

In five days the HH Master tournament will start, which is this time Tawlbwrdd. I suggest that the tournament series continues with a HH Tablut Master tournament Feb. 15th! (finding the master, but outside of the quadrathlon calculation of this year.)

- And while we're at it, a Fetlar Master tournament March 1st? To find the most skilled player for strong king without the Copenhagen extras.

Ded Fomich
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 4:34 pm

Re: World Tafl Federation

Post by Ded Fomich » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:04 pm

If we are to fully accept the conception of the grandmaster’s title which is very difficult to get and the format of tournaments with at least 4 grandmasters or at least 8 players rated 1800 and higher, then, in my view, we need a bigger community, more active high-rated players and a regulation on obligatory participation of grandmasters in tournaments or something like that (for example, loss of the title or drop in rankings for non-participation).

According to the Aage’s information about busiest players of the last year we have only one active grandmaster, it’s Casshern. In the last championship tournament we could see only one of the total number of grandmasters, it was Adam. I also can’t recall non-championship tournaments with at least 8 high-rated players. It all means that at the moment the title is unreachable for the challengers, the only way is to take the first place in the Valhǫll group and play only Copenhagen tafl.

The situation is exacerbated by all that mentioned by Casshern reasons regarding rankings and by existing of several tafl variants. For example, I never play variants with corner exits because of many personal reasons, I only teach people here in Moscow to play it, because it’s the most popular variant of tafl and many people like it. I’m a big fan of the historical hnefatafl rules and mostly play games using them, the historical background of Tablut led me to discovering many things about the Viking Age, Old Norse, history in general, etc. I’m not a sportsman, I play historical tafl because of my obsession with its background, not because of titles or rankings. But if any ambitious sportsman was in my position, then he couldn’t count on getting the title of grandmaster with the application of this new conception, at the moment we just have not enough players and regulations for its realisation. Moreover, at the moment it separates a “true” sportsman using Copenhagen rules from a “non-true” sportsman who prefers other variants. Presently the first one can be a grandmaster, the second one can not. Nowadays it seems harmful for development of other tafl variants if we look at tafl in the context of sport.

So I think that in the present situation it wouldn’t do any harm if we have here some separate titles for other variants of tafl, they could motivate people with sporting sense and ambitions. These titles could also inspire people to try other tafl variants (the undeservedly left out in the cold Sea Battle Tafl, for example). The new conception could start working only if we have a quite big community with active and motivated high-rated players.
Last edited by Ded Fomich on Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ded Fomich
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 4:34 pm

Re: World Tafl Federation

Post by Ded Fomich » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:22 pm

Hagbard wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:43 am
Actually, there has come a special interest in the 9x9 version of Historical Hnefatafl, the Saami Tablut 9x9, in the Norwegian Sápmi (Mikkel Berg-Nordlie, "Mihkkal") and in the Moscow Geek Wars club (Alexander V. Fomichev, "Ded Fomich").
Hell yes! In my case, it’s an interest which borders on the obsession. There are no other rules but the Historical Hnefatafl rules and Saami Tablut is their Prophet! ;)

User avatar
Hagbard
Posts: 470
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:07 pm
Location: Copenhagen
Contact:

Re: World Tafl Federation

Post by Hagbard » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:55 pm

Elaborating on the Federation Master (FM).

I propose that a player can become a Federation Master (FM) if
- he is rated at least 1800
- he has played at least 500 games
- he has qualified in at least three tournaments within a rolling period of three years, this way
--- at least 80% point win in tournaments with one round (normal variants with at least 8 players, of which at least two more are rated at least 1800 or GM),
--- or at least 60% point win in the final round of tournaments with more rounds (no opponents rated below 1500). Again at least two more must be rated at least 1800 or GM. The final round can have less than 8 players.
--- a Master tournament is counted if it has at least 6 players.

Candidates and near-candidates for FM:
1928 OdinHimself, Valaskjálf, Asgard (351) (IM)
1846 mmagari, Milano, Italia (830)
1845 Ded Fomich, Moskvagarðr, Garðaríki (386)
1760 Bogd Khan, Plovdiv, Bulgaria (389)
1749 Khan Asparukh, Sofia, Bulgaria (138)
1747 edmond-dantes, Kyustendil, Bulgaria (230)
1702 sqAree, Berlin, Germany (281)
1677 animals, Peterborough, UK (462) (NM)
1610 Steiger, Gorlovka, Donbass (525)


The last 3 years there have been 15 relevant tournaments:
1 World Tafl Federation Championship Tournament 2016, Historical Hnefatafl 11x11 (Welsh Tawlbwrdd) (2016-08-31, tourn. 65)
2 Berserk Hnefatafl 11x11 Master (2016-11-23, tourn. 67)
3 American Championship Tournament 2017, Copenhagen Hnefatafl 11x11 (2017-02-01, tourn. 72)
4 European Championship Tournament 2017, Copenhagen Hnefatafl 11x11 (2017-03-01, tourn. 75)
5 World Tafl Federation Championship Tournament 2017, Copenhagen Hnefatafl 11x11 (2017-09-15, tourn. 94)
6 Berserk Hnefatafl 11x11 Master (2018-01-01, tourn. 97)
7 Sea battle tafl 11x11 Master (2018-02-07, tourn. 98)
8 Historical Hnefatafl 13x13 (Parlett) Master (2018-02-28, tourn. 99)
9 World Tafl Federation Championship Tournament 2018, Copenhagen Hnefatafl 11x11 (2018-09-14, tourn. 115)
10 Historical Hnefatafl 9x9 (Saami Tablut) (2018-12-23, tourn. 123)
11 Berserk Hnefatafl 11x11 Master (2019-01-01, tourn. 124)
12 Historical Hnefatafl 11x11 (Welsh Tawlbwrdd) Master (2019-01-14, tourn. 125)
13 Sea Master
14 Tablut Master
15 Fetlar Master


Tournaments 1, 2 and 3 and 7 did not have a candidate player.

Tournament 5.
3 players > 1800 (casshern, Plantagenet and OdinHimself) and 4 FM candidates (OdinHimself, edmond-dantes, animals and sqAree)
Casshern: 8 pt., Plantagenet: 8 pt., Odinhimself: 5 pt., Edmond-dantes: 4 pt., Animals: 3 pt., Sqaree: 2 pt.,
6 players, 10 pt.
OdinHimself won 5 pt = 5/10 = 50%, not qualifying (limit 60%)
edmond-dantes won 4 pt = 4/10 = 40%, not qualifying (limit 60%)
animals won 3 pt = 3/10 = 30%, not qualifying (limit 60%)
sqAree won 2 pt = 2/10 = 20%, not qualifying (limit 60%)

Tournament 6.
2 players > 1800 (casshern and Adam) and 1 FM candidates (edmond-dantes)
Casshern: 14 pt., Adam: 11 pt., Edmond-dantes: 9 pt., Hagbard: 8 pt., Xerxes: 6 pt., Jrton80: 4 pt., Kaagee: 2 pt., Fraech: 2 pt.,
8 players, 14 pt.
edmond-dantes won 9 pt = 9/14 = 64.3%, not qualifying (limit 80%)

Tournament 9.
3 players > 1800 (casshern, OdinHimself and Adam) and 4 FM candidates (Odinhimself, sqAree, Khan Asparukh and Steiger).
Casshern: 12 pt., Odinhimself: 10 pt., Sqaree: 7 pt., Khan asparukh: 6 pt., Adam: 4 pt., Steiger: 3 pt., Epm180: 0 pt.,
7 players, 12 pt.
OdinHimself won 10 pt = 10/12 = 83.3%, QUALIFYING (limit 60%).
sqAree won 7 pt = 7/12 = 58.3%, not qualifying (limit 60%).
Khan Asparukh won 6 pt = 6/12 = 50%, not qualifying (limit 60%).
Steiger won 3 pt = 3/12 = 25%, not qualifying (limit 60%).


Tournament 8.
2 players > 1800 (casshern and Ded fomich) and 1 FM candidate (Ded Fomich).
Casshern: 18 pt., Hagbard: 17 pt., Ded fomich: 16 pt., Agmundr: 14 pt., Docbullen: 12 pt., Xerxes: 7 pt., Vonraider: 7 pt., Fraech: 5 pt., Trygve: 5 pt., Jrton80: 5 pt., Harry64: 4 pt.,

There is only one elite player besides Ded Fomich, where two are required.
With so few active elite players, this will happen often. An arithmetical trick can give more usable tournaments:
When there is only one elite player besides the candidate, then a "ghost elite player" is added in place of the missing player. If the candidate is rated 1800, then the ghost player beats him in both games; if the candidate is rated 2000, then he beats the ghost player in both games.
Ded Fomich is rated 1845 and thus wins from the ghost player 45/200 * 2 = 0.45 pt.
With the ghost player there are 12 players and 22 pt. Ded Fomich won 16.45 pt. which is 16.45/22 = 74.8%, not qualifying (limit 80%).


Tournament 10.
2 players > 1800 (casshern and Ded Fomich) and 3 FM candidates (Odinhimself, Khan Asparukh and Steiger).
Casshern: 16 pt., Ded fomich: 13 pt., Agmundr: 10 pt., Khan asparukh: 10 pt., Steiger: 8 pt., Xerxes: 7 pt., Mihkkal: 5 pt., Kllimm: 2 pt., Jrton80: 1 pt.,
9 players, 16 pt.
Khan Asparukh won 10 pt = 10/16 = 62.5%, not qualifying (limit 80%).
Steiger won 8 pt = 8/16 = 50%, not qualifying (limit 80%).

For the Ded Fomich calculation, a ghost player is added, from whom Ded Fomich again wins 0.45 pt.
With the ghost player there are 10 players and 18 pt. Ded Fomich won 13.45 pt. which is 13.45/18 = 74.7%, not qualifying (limit 80%).


Tournament 4.
1 player > 1800 (OdinHimself) and 4 FM candidates (Odinhimself, animals, sqAree and Steiger).
Odinhimself: 19 pt., Animals: 14 pt., Sqaree: 14 pt., Hagbard: 12 pt., Steiger: 11 pt., Kratzer: 10 pt., Thanir: 9 pt., Xerxes: 9 pt., Arevidar: 6 pt., Marcin: 4 pt., Anto2016: 2 pt.,
OdinHimself: no other elite players.

For the rest, a ghost player is added, who beats them in all games.
With the ghost player there are 12 players and 22 pt.
animals won 14 pt = 14/22 = 63.6%, not qualifying (limit 80%).
sqAree won 14 pt = 14/22 = 63.6%, not qualifying (limit 80%).
Steiger won 14 pt = 11/22 = 50%, not qualifying (limit 80%).


So all in all OdinHimself qualified in one tournament, and no other players did.

Ded Fomich wrote: Moreover, at the moment it separates a “true” sportsman using Copenhagen rules from a “non-true” sportsman who prefers other variants. Presently the first one can be a grandmaster, the second one can not.
This method of calculation for FM makes all variants equal. You could qualify playing Saami Tablut only, or in any mix of variants.

It will be very hard to fulfil the reqirements for FM, but probably slightly easier than winning a World Championship and the GM.

Update 15.1.2019.
Qualifying in 3 tournaments is so difficult so that it is not necessary to also require the candidate to have rating > 1800. Rating > 1600 could be enough.
Last edited by Hagbard on Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:07 pm, edited 17 times in total.

nath
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:34 pm

Re: World Tafl Federation

Post by nath » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:34 am

I'm not entirely sure whether I should want more titles right now. What I am sure about however is that it's a bad idea to couple stuff with the fairly ambiguous rating.

I think we should try to make a title mean something special, to show that a player archived something notable.

I don#t even think we should put every of your titles into a ranking. Being strong in Copenhagen Hnefatafl and strong in bunch of variants can be both special on it's own, but I am opposed to mix them together. I don't mind giving a title for any particular variant, but it's best to let them be different for different variants.

I am furthermore not convinced we need more titles at all. Odin is already IM, and I think that means something. I'd love to bring some action, but I think titles that are just awarded without work, don't benefit the community.

I'd love to be part of an real life tournament. Are there any other people interested? I could try to get a location Berlin if there is a general interest (and not just four people).

All the best
nath

sqAree
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:51 pm

Re: World Tafl Federation

Post by sqAree » Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:20 am

I would be very interested to join a real life tournament if the date fits and if it's Copenhagen Tafl!

User avatar
Hagbard
Posts: 470
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:07 pm
Location: Copenhagen
Contact:

Re: World Tafl Federation

Post by Hagbard » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:49 am

Elaborating on the Candidate Master (CM).

A Federation Master from the FM scheme above is as seldom as snow in June.

I took another look at the CM idea and

I propose that a player can become a Candidate Master (CM) if
- he is rated at least 1600
- he has played at least 500 games
- he has qualified in at least three tournaments within a rolling period of three years, this way
--- at least 60% point win in tournaments with one round (normal variants with at least 8 players, of which at least two more are rated at least 1600)
--- or at least 20% point win in the final round of tournaments with more rounds (no opponents rated below 1500). Again at least two more must be rated at least 1600. The final round can have less than 8 players.
--- a Master tournament is counted if it has at least 6 players.

Candidates and near-candidates for CM:
1928 OdinHimself, Valaskjálf, Asgard (351) (IM)
1846 mmagari, Milano, Italia (830)
1845 Ded Fomich, Moskvagarðr, Garðaríki (386)
1760 Bogd Khan, Plovdiv, Bulgaria (389)
1749 Khan Asparukh, Sofia, Bulgaria (138)
1747 edmond-dantes, Kyustendil, Bulgaria (230)
1702 sqAree, Berlin, Germany (281)
1677 animals, Peterborough, UK (462) (NM)
1610 Steiger, Gorlovka, Donbass (525)
1596 Hagbard, Copenhagen, Danmark (2676)
1588 altti, ny, usa (1202)
1570 duhawk93, , United States (897)
1568 Agmundr, Lier, Norway (972)
1557 bigwurm91, san diego, united states (137)
1556 tonythebook, Formby, Merseyside (1289)
1515 docbullen, formby, Merseyside (1136) (NM)


The last 3 years there have been 15 relevant tournaments:
1 World Tafl Federation Championship Tournament 2016, Historical Hnefatafl 11x11 (Welsh Tawlbwrdd) (2016-08-31, tourn. 65)
2 Berserk Hnefatafl 11x11 Master (2016-11-23, tourn. 67)
3 American Championship Tournament 2017, Copenhagen Hnefatafl 11x11 (2017-02-01, tourn. 72)
4 European Championship Tournament 2017, Copenhagen Hnefatafl 11x11 (2017-03-01, tourn. 75)
5 World Tafl Federation Championship Tournament 2017, Copenhagen Hnefatafl 11x11 (2017-09-15, tourn. 94)
6 Berserk Hnefatafl 11x11 Master (2018-01-01, tourn. 97)
7 Sea battle tafl 11x11 Master (2018-02-07, tourn. 98)
8 Historical Hnefatafl 13x13 Master (Parlett) (2018-02-28, tourn. 99)
9 World Tafl Federation Championship Tournament 2018, Copenhagen Hnefatafl 11x11 (2018-09-14, tourn. 115)
10 Historical Hnefatafl 9x9 (Saami Tablut) (2018-12-23, tourn. 123)
11 Berserk Hnefatafl 11x11 Master (2019-01-01, tourn. 124)
12 Historical Hnefatafl 11x11 (Welsh Tawlbwrdd) Master (2019-01-14, tourn. 125)
13 Sea Master
14 Tablut Master
15 Fetlar Master


Tournament 1.
3 players > 1600 and 4 CM candidates (Altti, Steiger, Animals and tonythebook)
Odinhimself: 8 pt., Altti: 6 pt., Steiger: 3 pt., Animals: 2 pt., Tonythebook: 1 pt.
5 players, 8 pt.
Altti won 8 pt = 6/8 = 75%, QUALIFYING (limit 20%)
Steiger won 5 pt = 3/8 = 38%, QUALIFYING (limit 20%)
Animals won 4 pt = 2/8 = 25%, QUALIFYING (limit 20%)
Tonythebook won 3 pt = 1/8 = 13%, not qualifying (limit 20%)

Tournament 2.
2 players > 1600 and 1 CM candidate (Hagbard)
Adam: 13 pt., Kratzer: 11 pt., Xerxes: 10 pt., Hagbard: 10 pt., Vonraider: 8 pt., Thanir: 8 pt., Fraech: 7 pt., Kaagee: 2 pt., Tuireann: 1 pt.,
Ghost player added.
Hagbard won 10 pt = 10/18 = 56%, not qualifying (limit 60%)

Tournament 3.
1 player > 1600 and 2 CM candidates (Altti and Bigwurm91)
Altti: 14 pt., Casshern: 13 pt., Fraech: 9 pt., Brench: 8 pt., Tuireann: 8 pt., Bigwurm91: 8 pt., Fairland: 7 pt., Waegn: 3 pt., Imaxuncut: 2 pt.,
Ghost player added.
Altti won 14 pt = 14/18 = 78%, QUALIFYING (limit 60%)
Bigwurm91 won 8 pt = 8/18 = 44%, not qualifying (limit 60%)

Tournament 4.
5 players > 1600 and 4 CM candidates (Animals, Sqaree, Hagbard and Steiger)
Odinhimself: 19 pt., Animals: 14 pt., Sqaree: 14 pt., Hagbard: 12 pt., Steiger: 11 pt., Kratzer: 10 pt., Thanir: 9 pt., Xerxes: 9 pt., Arevidar: 6 pt., Marcin: 4 pt., Anto2016: 2 pt.,
11 players, 20 pt.
Animals won 14 pt = 14/20 = 70%, QUALIFYING (limit 60%)
Sqaree won 14 pt = 14/20 = 70%, QUALIFYING (limit 60%)
Hagbard won 12 pt = 12/20 = 60%, QUALIFYING (limit 60%)
Steiger won 11 pt = 11/20 = 55%, not qualifying (limit 60%)

Tournament 5.
6 players > 1600 and 3 CM candidates (Edmond-dantes, Animals and Sqaree)
Casshern: 8 pt., Plantagenet: 8 pt., Odinhimself: 5 pt., Edmond-dantes: 4 pt., Animals: 3 pt., Sqaree: 2 pt.,
6 players, 10 pt.
Edmond-dantes won 4 pt = 4/10 = 40%, QUALIFYING (limit 20%)
Animals won 3 pt = 3/10 = 30%, QUALIFYING (limit 20%)
Sqaree won 2 pt = 2/10 = 20%, QUALIFYING (limit 20%)

Tournament 6.
4 players > 1600 and 2 CM candidates (Edmond-dantes and Hagbard)
Casshern: 14 pt., Adam: 11 pt., Edmond-dantes: 9 pt., Hagbard: 8 pt., Xerxes: 6 pt., Jrton80: 4 pt., Kaagee: 2 pt., Fraech: 2 pt.,
8 players, 14 pt
Edmond-dantes won 9 pt = 9/14 = 64%, QUALIFYING (limit 60%)
Hagbard won 8 pt = 8/14 = 57%, not qualifying (limit 60%)

Tournament 7.
2 players > 1600 and 3 CM candidates (Agmundr, Hagbard and Docbullen)
Casshern: 12 pt., Agmundr: 9 pt., Hagbard: 7 pt., Xerxes: 6 pt., Docbullen: 5 pt., Fraech: 2 pt., Jrton80: 1 pt.,
7 players, 12 pt.
Agmundr won 9 pt = 9/12 = 75%, QUALIFYING (limit 60%).
Docbullen won 5 pt = 5/12 = 42%, not qualifying (limit 60%).
Ghost player added.
Hagbard won 7 pt = 7/14 = 50%, not qualifying (limit 60%).

Tournament 8.
3 players > 1600 and 4 CM candidates (Hagbard, Ded Fomich, Agmundr and docbullen).
Casshern: 18 pt., Hagbard: 17 pt., Ded fomich: 16 pt., Agmundr: 14 pt., Docbullen: 12 pt., Xerxes: 7 pt., Vonraider: 7 pt., Fraech: 5 pt., Trygve: 5 pt., Jrton80: 5 pt., Harry64: 4 pt.,
11 players, 20 pt.
Hagbard won 17 pt = 17/20 = 85%, QUALIFYING (limit 60%)
Ded Fomich won 16 pt = 16/20 = 80%, QUALIFYING (limit 60%)
Agmundr won 14 pt = 14/20 = 70%, QUALIFYING (limit 60%)
docbullen won 12 pt = 12/20 = 60%, QUALIFYING (limit 60%)

Tournament 9.
6 players > 1600 and 3 CM candidates (Sqaree, Khan Asparukh and Steiger).
Casshern: 10 pt., Odinhimself: 8 pt., Sqaree: 5 pt., Khan asparukh: 4 pt., Adam: 2 pt., Steiger: 1 pt.
6 players, 10 pt.
Sqaree won 10 pt = 5/10 = 50%, QUALIFYING (limit 20%).
Khan Asparukh won 4 pt = 4/10 = 40%, QUALIFYING (limit 20%).
Steiger won 1 pt = 1/10 = 10%, not qualifying (limit 20%).

Tournament 10.
4 players > 1600 and 4 CM candidates (Ded fomich, Agmundr, Khan Asparukh and Steiger).
Casshern: 16 pt., Ded fomich: 13 pt., Agmundr: 10 pt., Khan asparukh: 10 pt., Steiger: 8 pt., Xerxes: 7 pt., Mihkkal: 5 pt., Kllimm: 2 pt., Jrton80: 1 pt.,
9 players, 16 pt.
Ded fomich won 13 pt = 13/16 = 81%, QUALIFYING (limit 60%).
Agmundr won 10 pt = 10/16 = 63%, QUALIFYING (limit 60%).
Khan Asparukh won 10 pt = 10/16 = 63%, QUALIFYING (limit 60%).
Steiger won 8 pt = 8/16 = 50%, not qualifying (limit 60%).

Tournament 11.
3 players > 1600 and 2 CM candidates (Khan Asparukh and Hagbard).
[Casshern: 10 pt., Khan asparukh: 6 pt., Jrton80: 4 pt., Hagbard: 4 pt., Xerxes: 1 pt., Chuck ward: 0 pt., ]
6 spillere, 10 pt.
Khan Asparukh won 6 pt = 6/10 = 60%, QUALIFYING (limit 60%).
Hagbard won 4 pt = 4/10 = 40%, not qualifying (limit 60%).


Sum.
Ded Fomich qualified in 2 tourn.
Khan Asparukh qualified in 3 tourn. (rating 1749, 138 games)
edmond-dantes qualified in 2 tourn.
sqAree qualified in 3 tourn. (rating 1702, 281 games)
animals qualified in 3 tourn. (rating 1677, 462 games)
Steiger qualified in 1 tourn.
Hagbard qualified in 2 tourn.
altti qualified in 2 tourn.
Agmundr qualified in 3 tourn. (rating 1568, 972 games)
docbullen qualified in 1 tourn.


All in all noone qualified for CM, but some are close.

It could be enough for the candidate to have rating > 1500.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests