Saami Tablut

Tafl rules
conanlibrarian
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Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2015 3:48 pm

Re: About the draw concept

Post by conanlibrarian » Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:37 pm

I think that "Scand. museums Hnefatafl edge 11x11", and indeed any edge Tafl version, should forbid repetitions and draws completely. Draws are probably needed in corner Tafl, to stop the attackers from blocking all corners too easily, but in edge Tafl there is no such reason for having them, and also no possibility of building edge forts (since you already won then :) ). Or are there other reasons for having them here?

Hagbard
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Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:07 pm

Re: About the draw concept

Post by Hagbard » Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:22 pm

conanlibrarian wrote:I think that "Scand. museums Hnefatafl edge 11x11", and indeed any edge Tafl version, should forbid repetitions and draws completely. Draws are probably needed in corner Tafl, to stop the attackers from blocking all corners too easily, but in edge Tafl there is no such reason for having them
Interesting that the Fotevikens Museum has changed their Tablut rules and added a point 13 which was not there before:
13. I vissa lägen kan det uppstå s.k. evighetsdrag. Det kan gälla både vid utgång och inringning. För att bryta ett sådant dödläge måste den offensiva parten efter ett par upprepningar göra ett annat drag. Denna regel kan förklaras med hjälp avföljande exempel:

Kungen hotar att gå ut och en moskovit flyttas emellan för att blockera. Kungen flyttar då till en ny ruta och hotar att gå ut även här. Samma moskovit måste användas för att blockera även denna gång. Kungen flyttar tillbaka till första rutan och moskoviten flyttas också tillbaka för att blockera. När de beskrivna dragen upprepats ett par gånger, måste den som spelar svensk göra ett annat drag, eftersom det är denne som är den offensive.
The Fotevikens Tablut is something between edge and corner escape, and the new point 13 forbids perpetual moves and requires the threatening player to find another move.

conanlibrarian
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2015 3:48 pm

Re: Saami Tablut

Post by conanlibrarian » Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:39 pm

Very interesting comments everyone! I think we all can agree that the tournament proved at least one thing: In "Scandinavian Museum 11x11 Edge" black is the stronger side (but by how much could still be discussed). This is interesting in itself, since previously white was assumed by some to be stronger.

Further thoughts:
  • For the three king strengths: four-sided (armed), unarmed (four-sided), and two-sided (armed), four-sided is obviously strongest, but which is weakest? Based on my feeling I would say "two-sided"; do you agree?
  • Based on this tournament experience, is "Scand. Museum 9x9" (corner) really balanced? Statistics say 42 white wins, 45 black wins and two draws (if my 'grep fu' is powerful enough ;) ), but statistics is not everything.
  • What about "Scandinavian Museum 9x9 Edge", or Cartier Tablut? Very little experience, but perhaps worth giving it another chance, given the tournament experience? The smaller board should give white a better chance compared to "Scandinavian Museum 11x11 Edge".

Hagbard
Posts: 406
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:07 pm

Re: About the draw concept

Post by Hagbard » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:09 pm

crust wrote:The only Swedish I know is "Smolltronn"
"13. In certain situations the so-called perpetual moves may occur. This can happen both at exit and at encirclement. In order to break such a stalemate the aggressive party after a couple of repetitions has to make a different move. This rule can be explained by the following example: the king threatens to exit and a muscovit is moved in between to block. The king then moves to another square and threatens to exit here as well. The same muscovit has to be employed to block this time too. The king moves back to the first square and the muscovit is also moved back to block. When the described moves are repeated a couple of times, he who plays the Swedes must make a different move, because it is he who is the aggressive party."

crust
Posts: 127
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:29 am

Re: About the draw concept

Post by crust » Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:03 pm

Thanks Hagbard for the translation. That's very interesting that they also focus on which player is the "aggressive party" just as we discussed the "threatening player" - Usually in game situations it will be the defenders who are the aggressive party, but there is always the possibility that the attackers can threaten checkmate in a repetitive move, and so they will be forced to find another move, as the defenders are helpless to do so. I wonder what they would make of our double perpetual check scenario where both players are placing each other in check on alternate moves - not a very likely event I know, but possible!

Hagbard
Posts: 406
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:07 pm

Re: About the draw concept

Post by Hagbard » Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:34 pm

crust wrote:I wonder what they would make of our double perpetual check scenario
The Swedes are lucky - this particular position could not happen in the Fotevikens Tablut, because the king wins on edge.

Hagbard
Posts: 406
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:07 pm

Re: Balanced 9x9 and 11x11 tafl variants

Post by Hagbard » Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:12 pm

conanlibrarian wrote:I think we all can agree that the tournament proved at least one thing: In "Scandinavian Museum 11x11 Edge" black is the stronger side (but by how much could still be discussed). This is interesting in itself, since previously white was assumed by some to be stronger.
Yes the difficulties of the defenders in the "Scandinavian Museum 11x11 Edge" was a surprice at least to me.
conanlibrarian wrote:What about "Scandinavian Museum 9x9 Edge", or Cartier Tablut? Very little experience, but perhaps worth giving it another chance, given the tournament experience? The smaller board should give white a better chance compared to "Scandinavian Museum 11x11 Edge".
I suggest we try a test tournament in "Scandinavian Museum 9x9 Edge" in a couple of weeks?

crust
Posts: 127
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:29 am

Re: About the draw concept

Post by crust » Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:02 pm

That's true, I forgot that :oops: Being Swedes, they probably make sure the Muscovites always lose

Hagbard
Posts: 406
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:07 pm

Re: About the draw concept

Post by Hagbard » Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:10 pm

:D

conanlibrarian
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2015 3:48 pm

Re: Balanced 9x9 and 11x11 tafl variants

Post by conanlibrarian » Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:30 pm

Hagbard wrote:I suggest we try a test tournament in "Scandinavian Museum 9x9 Edge" in a couple of weeks?
No comments on this yet. I would find that very interesting - but I don't want to be the guy that causes weird tournaments with less popular rule-sets. :) What do other people think, would this version to be interesting to play? Also, a question: The newly available "Skalk 9x9 edge" - I assume the rules are identical to the 11x11 edge version except for board size and starting position? Reason I ask is I saw the old Cartier games have this name also now since the name change, and the rules there are slightly different for the throne.

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