Brandubh 7x7

Tafl rules
Wesley Alves
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:06 pm

Re: Brandubh 7x7

Post by Wesley Alves » Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:25 am

Thank You! :)

unhandyandy
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:39 pm

Re: Brandubh 7x7

Post by unhandyandy » Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:16 pm

To be clear: in the Brandubh2 rules, a single piece can capture the King when it is adjacent to the throne? That would seem to follow from
Blacks win if they manage to capture the king before he escapes. The king is captured like all other pieces, except when he is on the throne.
To capture the king on his throne, the attackers must surround the throne by standing on the four cardinal points. Everywhere else on the board the king is captured as a normal piece
For example, when the King is on D3 and a black piece moves to D2?

Code: Select all

OTO
OKO
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But that cannot be right - it is not how Brandubh2 is currently implemented, and it would make it significantly harder for the king to ever leave the throne.

Auskor
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:36 am

Re: Brandubh 7x7

Post by Auskor » Sun Sep 20, 2020 2:41 pm

I guess the situation you described is covered by section 3 of the rules where it states "The throne is never hostile to the king". Hence the king on D3 is safe when a black piece lands on D2.

unhandyandy
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:39 pm

Re: Brandubh 7x7

Post by unhandyandy » Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:17 pm

Ah, thanks for pointing that out Auskor.

But then the following statement by Branan isn't quite true.
The king is captured by 4 attackers when on the throne, and by 2 attackers everywhere else, also on the squares next to the throne.
This idea is straightforward and logical, the king is now treated on the four squares next to the throne just like on any other square (except for the throne).
Because on a square next to throne the king can be captured by 3 attackers: if the king e.g. moves off the throne to d3, between black pieces on c3 and e3, then black can capture the king by moving to d2. This pattern doesn't hold anywhere else.

Auskor
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:36 am

Re: Brandubh 7x7

Post by Auskor » Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:39 pm

Are you sure about that unhandyandy?

I know that was the case in Brandubh-1 when 3 pieces on c3, d2 and e3 would capture a king on d3 and it states it clearly in the Brandubh 1 rules.

I confess that I have never had the case you mentioned (white king on d3 between black pieces on c3 and e3 when black moves another piece to d2) but I interpret the Brandubh-2 rules to mean that the white king would be safe in the situation you describe as if the throne is not hostile to the king then a 'two piece' capture has not been made.

What do other players think?

We could try a x10 game to check how the rules have been interpreted by the game's programmer.

1. d2-e2 d3-d2
2. e2-e3 d2-b2
3. b4-b3 e4-e5
4. b3-c3 d4-d3
5. d1-d2

unhandyandy
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:39 pm

Re: Brandubh 7x7

Post by unhandyandy » Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:55 pm

Yes, that's how the rules sounded to me also, but I asked Branan about this specific point and he said
In my mind, the new rule is only an addition to the old one. So a single move to surround the king on the 3 sides should work.
Which would mean, at a minimum, the current rule set for Brandubh2 is still ambiguous.

Auskor
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:36 am

Re: Brandubh 7x7

Post by Auskor » Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:21 pm

I looked back to previous posts in this topic. On page 4 Hagbard and Branan had a discussion re the 2 or 3 piece capture next to the throne and it reads to me that the 3 piece capture has been removed in Irish Brandubh 2.

I think the problem with the rules interpretation is more for players who played Irish Brandubh 1 where the 3 piece capture was allowed. If you are not aware of this possibility then the current rules for Brandubh 2 are just about ok.

unhandyandy
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:39 pm

Re: Brandubh 7x7

Post by unhandyandy » Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:34 pm

Yes, you're right again Auskor.

That means my original point still stands:
There's one quirk about the new rules that bugs me a little. If the king moves from the throne to a neighboring square which is between two black pieces, then under the new rules immediately capturing the king is harder than under the old rules: previously the king could be captured by moving to surround it on the 3rd side, but now the only way to capture it is to move one black piece away and back, taking two moves. Perhaps not a big deal, but unthematic if the intention of the new rule was to aid black.
Just a minor issue though.

Auskor
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:36 am

Re: Brandubh 7x7

Post by Auskor » Fri Oct 02, 2020 6:55 pm

Am I the only one who is unclear about the repetition rule?

Today there was a case in game where the SAME BOARD POSITION occurred three times but not as part of a continuous sequence of repeating moves. This resulted in one player losing unexpectedly as they had not repeated the same moves one after the other.

It has therefore been proposed in the small forum that the threefold repetition rule should consider not only the board position but also the sequence of moves to arrive at the repeated position.

While I think this is a good idea it might cause problems in the following case which is fairly common in Brandubh 2:

White has king on the open 5th rank, black has a piece in front of the king on the 6th rank. The 7th rank is open. To consider an absolute worst case assume that there are no black pieces on the 4th rank. So white king can move anywhere along the 5th rank and black can only block along the 6th rank. After 15 moves at most the same board position will have occured 3 times and black would be declared the winner.

In this case if you also had to consider the sequence of moves to get a three fold board repetition - many more moves would have to be recorded before black could be declared the winner.

Does anyone have any other ideas as to how repetitions could be handled?

unhandyandy
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:39 pm

Re: Brandubh 7x7

Post by unhandyandy » Sat Oct 03, 2020 2:50 am

I'm in favor of giving a win to Black in case of a repetition. That would be very clear and easy to program.

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