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Re: Brandubh 7x7

Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 8:29 pm
by Hagbard
What we've done on this site is "Experimental Archaeology". We've tested rules as much as possible based on historical information, tested if rules work or don't work and how they work.

The Linné diary is taken as a point of departure for the Historical Hnefatafl. It leads to the Saami Tablut 9x9, which was found to work very well.

We also found that the historical rules are scalable to boards larger than 9x9, so that a setup of pieces for a balanced game can always be found.

Scaling down to the smaller board 7x7, however, was found to be not equally simple.
It was necessary to introduce win in corner, and the best setup has the game balance +1.47, which is ok but not very good.

Then you suggested the rule change for the squares next to the throne:
The king is captured by 4 attackers when on the throne, and by 2 attackers everywhere else, also on the squares next to the throne.
This idea is straightforward and logical, the king is now treated on the four squares next to the throne just like on any other square (except for the throne).
And it works very well, game balance +1.16

I wrote a note here about the phenomenon "Small boards":
viewtopic.php?f=1&p=1227#p1227

Since the simple idea of all squares are equal, only the throne differs, works well, then it is not necessary to make the rule more complex by capturing by 2 or 3.

Now, is this rule change then for certain just a modern invention?
The direct line from the Linné diary leads to the "Brandubh 1" with the balance +1.47. This is not bad and could very well have been played this way in the old times.
However, being far from perfect, it's also probable that some ancient players went through much the same considerations as we've been with this, and your solution being so straightforward and simple, some ancient players could very well have ended up with the same solution ("Brandubh 2").

So, "Brandubh 2" could be a historical brandubh game as much as "Brandubh 1".

Re: Brandubh 7x7

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 5:53 pm
by branan
Hagbard wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 8:29 pm
What we've done on this site is "Experimental Archaeology". We've tested rules as much as possible based on historical information, tested if rules work or don't work and how they work.

The Linné diary is taken as a point of departure for the Historical Hnefatafl. It leads to the Saami Tablut 9x9, which was found to work very well.

We also found that the historical rules are scalable to boards larger than 9x9, so that a setup of pieces for a balanced game can always be found.

Scaling down to the smaller board 7x7, however, was found to be not equally simple.
It was necessary to introduce win in corner, and the best setup has the game balance +1.47, which is ok but not very good.

Then you suggested the rule change for the squares next to the throne:
The king is captured by 4 attackers when on the throne, and by 2 attackers everywhere else, also on the squares next to the throne.
This idea is straightforward and logical, the king is now treated on the four squares next to the throne just like on any other square (except for the throne).
And it works very well, game balance +1.16

I wrote a note here about the phenomenon "Small boards":
viewtopic.php?f=1&p=1227#p1227

Since the simple idea of all squares are equal, only the throne differs, works well, then it is not necessary to make the rule more complex by capturing by 2 or 3.
Ok for this point. I rewrote the rules to take of this and I removed the 3 pieces king capture near the throne.
Hagbard wrote:Now, is this rule change then for certain just a modern invention?
The direct line from the Linné diary leads to the "Brandubh 1" with the balance +1.47. This is not bad and could very well have been played this way in the old times.
However, being far from perfect, it's also probable that some ancient players went through much the same considerations as we've been with this, and your solution being so straightforward and simple, some ancient players could very well have ended up with the same solution ("Brandubh 2").

So, "Brandubh 2" could be a historical brandubh game as much as "Brandubh 1".
If I understand correctly, none of them could be called historical then. ;)

Anyway, I'ld like we could found better name than "king2nextthrone" for Brandubh 2. Any idea?

Files bellow were adjusted to take care of these two points. I also updated some graphics.

Re: Brandubh 7x7

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:35 pm
by Hagbard
Thank you, this is perfect, uploaded.
The two versions are now named simply Brandubh 1 and 2.

Re: Brandubh 7x7

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:57 pm
by branan
Nice Aage!

But you forgot to update this page: http://aagenielsen.dk/historical_hnefatafl_rules.php (the Brandubh rules page linked on the "new game" page)

The english version didn't need any correction? Because if it's ok like this, Mariam (themightyglider) is ok to start a german translation.

Re: Brandubh 7x7

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:34 pm
by Hagbard
New Game link corrected.

As far as I could tell, the English text is ok.

Re: Brandubh 7x7

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 11:05 pm
by branan
Very good. Thanks a lot Aage.

But I just saw I've made a mistake in the english version: it lost some section numbering. It's corrected in this one. Sorry for the inconvenience.

(I must upload zip files because pdf files are not allowed)

Re: Brandubh 7x7

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:27 am
by Hagbard
Uploaded.

Re: Brandubh 7x7

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:34 am
by branan
👍

In order to make the sources docs easier to share and modify by anybody, I put writable copies on Google Docs.

Here is the link to the english version: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Dpl ... 0H_xS8GNUE

And the link to the french version: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vGj ... _ddtGGyzKs

Please let me know if the sharing doesn't work.

Re: Brandubh 7x7

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:39 pm
by branan
Updated rules with the new pictures (online versions above are up to date too).

Re: Brandubh 7x7

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:19 am
by Hagbard
Uploaded.