Tawlbwrdd 11x11

[Hagbard]

Since Scandinavian Museums Edge is the variant closest to known historical variants (which is of interest to me), it would be great if you could point me to these test games.

To achieve more certain experience with the Scandinavian Museums Edge 11x11 variant, I suggest a test tournament as soon as possible.

7 players did the Scandinavian Museums Edge 11x11 test tournament without timeouts and had 42 games against each other.
The results are: white (defenders) 19 wins, black (attackers) 22 wins, 1 draw.

It seems that the Scandinavian Museums Edge 11x11 is after all fairly balanced, and future games can be rated?

[arne64]

It seems that the Scandinavian Museums Edge 11x11 is after all fairly balanced, and future games can be rated?

I don't think Scandinavian Museums Edge 11x11 is balanced! I had the strong perception that in a high level game white has no chance. I think the results only suggest that it's balanced because the most players are very inexperienced in this variant.
An example is that many black players have some fear attacking the king directly because in the other tafl variants they usually play it's a bad idea but in this variant the king is often seriously threatened by this move.

A suggestion from me would be changing the starting formation of black a bit so less edge is covert. Maybe this would work but I never tried it so far:

.....O.....
..O....O..
..O.O.O..

Question is if rules forbidding draws should be included?

I agree: draws should be excluded from this variant!

(13.1.2016 Hagbard comment: The suggested variant is Tablut Bell 11x11!)

[crust]

I don't think Scandinavian Museums Edge 11x11 is balanced!

I totally agree. If anyone thinks this form is balanced, I'll happily play them for money, as long as I can always play black! I wondered if maybe there were strategies to be discovered, but I do not think that is the case. Even armed, and even with the whole edge of the board as a target, the two-side capture king is just too vulnerable. Yes, I did win a few games as white, but I think Arne is right: unless black makes a bad mistake, white cannot normally win. So Hagbard, please don't make this one of the "rated" forms!

[arne64]

Perhaps a rule change could improve it?

'What's about changing the starting formation of black? I tried different formations and for edge games blacks formation makes a huge difference how the game is balanced (had some in favor for white, some for black and some which feel being balanced but because I tried them just few times I am not sure).
When there is one there are no rulechanges to be done and I think it's more interesting not to play always with the same formation.
What do you think?

[conanlibrarian]

Perhaps a rule change could improve it?

'What's about changing the starting formation of black?

I think this is an interesting idea. For 11x11 there is no historically documented starting position (as far as I know), except for the cryptic statement from ap Ifan: "... a king in the centre and twelve men in the places next to him, and twenty-four men seek to capture him. These are placed, six in the centre of each side of the board and in the six central positions. " Perhaps "the six central positions" could mean a 2x3 square on each side? This would give a starting position as:

Code: Select all

  a b c d e f g h i j k
11         x x x         11
10         x x x         10
09                       09
08           o           08
07 x x     o o o     x x 07
06 x x   o o @ o o   x x 06
05 x x     o o o     x x 05
04           o           04
03                       03
02         x x x         02
01         x x x         01
  a b c d e f g h i j k

Also, have you tried varying the defender starting position? Perhaps a large "plus" formation would make it easier to attack a corner and bring the king into play?

[arne64]

This would give a starting position as:

Code: Select all

   a b c d e f g h i j k
11         x x x         11
10         x x x         10
09                       09
08           o           08
07 x x     o o o     x x 07
06 x x   o o @ o o   x x 06
05 x x     o o o     x x 05
04           o           04
03                       03
02         x x x         02
01         x x x         01
   a b c d e f g h i j k

I tried this formations for unarmed king tafl edge a few times and it's to easy for white to get to the edge. For scand. Museums Hnefatafl I did not try it yet but I can imagine it's similar.

Also, have you tried varying the defender starting position? Perhaps a large "plus" formation would make it easier to attack a corner and bring the king into play?

yes, I tried it but it doesn't change enough and also white has some disadvantages from this position like having less white pieces supporting each other on the same line and the outer pieces being in danger if the pieces next to them move.


From the formations I tried the following one seems to be the most balanced (played 4 games against a weaker player so far). I think it's worth giving it a try!

Code: Select all

  a b c d e f g h i j k
11         x x x         11
10         x   x         10
09           x          09
08           o           08
07 x x     o o o     x x 07
06 x   x o o @ o o x   x 06
05 x x     o o o     x x 05
04           o           04
03           x          03
02         x   x         02
01         x x x         01
   a b c d e f g h i j k

[cyningstan]

Hello!

For ten years I've been looking for the article by F. R. Lewis cited by Murray and all sorts of other people. When my back was turned, the National Library of Wales has put it on-line. It has turned out to be quite informative, and contains a diagram of the tawlbwrdd taken from that drawn by Robert ap Ifan in 1587. It also mentions that some Icelandic scholars were aware of the nature of Hnefatafl before Murray. You can read about it in my blog post here or skip directly to the paper here. I hope people find it useful!

Damian

[conanlibrarian]

Thanks, that was interesting to read! A pity though that there were no direct translations of the quoted old Welsh text, I guess the author assumed anyone interested would know the language. Looking at page 190, I see that the author describe the attacking pieces as white, based on the translated law text. It is interesting that this agrees with what is known from the Icelandic sagas. Does anyone have a direct translation of the quoted welsh text?

[conanlibrarian]

Yes, trying Tablut 11x11 with a cross shaped starting layout would be interesting! Perhaps time for a new tournament?

Regarding historical rules before Tablut, there is just so much that we do not know. For all we know, perhaps the pieces originally moved only a single square per turn, and the long (Rook's) move is a late (Saami?) invention, influenced by chess! This would also neatly explain the games almost complete disappearance once chess arrived - this kind of Tafl would be a very slow game, even compared to the (relatively slow) medieval chess. Ok, this is just a hypothesis, and I do not really believe this (I think) - but it would be consistent with the sources, and it shows how little we really know.

[Adam]

Tawlbwrdd i feel sure will prove to have the same problem as linneus, which turned out to be a translation issue. I think the translation needs to be redone in light of our much deeper gaming knowledge. I have been in contact before with the welsh national library who hold the original. They can offer a new translation, I think it was around £125 or something. Very reasonable. I am still considering an exhibition proposal to Kultur Historisk Museum Oslo, and part of the proposal could be getting funding for a translation collaboration with the welsh national library and and museum there with tafl artefacts.

I did have one suggestion though, I think it would be good to put those stripes on the tawlbwrdd board. It bothers me that people keep saying that its for decoration purposes. I believe it would be very distracting in a tafl game with 4 fold symmetry, giving a strong sense of board direction. Putting it in and then seeing how players react to it could be interesting.